Early and unused DOOM 64 Level Designs

[Revenant100]

4 hours ago, whatup876 said:

Not sure if you mind me asking this, but how much more D64 concept art do you have?

This is all of the Doom artwork Shawn Murphy has posted, and that constitutes all of the Doom 64-related concept art we've ever seen. The only sorta similar things we have are the pictures of the latex demon models made by Gregor Punchatz, as posted earlier in this thread.

[CoTeCiO]

22 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Errrr, what? Cyberdemons were alive and well in Doom 64. Did you not play MAP25: Cat and Mouse?

 

Or MAP24: No Escape, which has three of them on Watch Me Die! difficulty?

Not to mention that there is one in the opening sequence constantly shooting rockets at the camera and there is a moment where the camera gets very close to it.

[Quasar]

I think he was referring to the old design of it, with dual rocket launchers. Would be curious to know why that was abandoned.

[Impboy4]

The Annihilator Cyberdemon on Realm667's Beastiary. Eriance probably found the early box art and made it a real monster.

[whatup876]

By the way, in case this thread is still relevant:

Were there any plans for a "Nightmare Cacodemon"?

Because in the Playstation version of Doom, the game's version of Doom 2's Tenements (originally map 17), the cage with the Archvile has its Archvile replaced by a Caco that is a bit more transparent.

 

[Dark Pulse]

16 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

By the way, in case this thread is still relevant:

Were there any plans for a "Nightmare Cacodemon"?

Because in the Playstation version of Doom, the game's version of Doom 2's Tenements (originally map 17), the cage with the Archvile has its Archvile replaced by a Caco that is a bit more transparent.

 

From what I remember, @Hyde said that was an accident/oversight.

 

That said, in a technical sense, any/all of PSX Doom's monsters can be Nightmared. It's just that for some reason or another, they chose only to stick that onto Spectres. (There were Nightmare Imps in a beta of PSX Doom, but they were all gone by the final.)

[Quasar]

Fun fact: we originally discovered that spectral caco during a live stream by Kaiser.

[DooM_RO]

I wish Id made Doom 64 EX official on PC by releasing on on Steam where it belongs. I would probably generate some Doom: Eternal hype too as well as some extra cash. I never had a N64 and my first experience of it was on the PC.

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

I wish Id made Doom 64 EX official on PC by releasing on on Steam where it belongs. I would probably generate some Doom: Eternal hype too as well as some extra cash. I never had a N64 and my first experience of it was on the PC.

That would probably require giving Kaiser some money. Though there's also a really good question of if they even could, since id had very little to do with it - it was mostly a Williams/Midway production, and with them being history now, who knows who holds the rights.

[DooM_RO]

7 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

That would probably require giving Kaiser some money. Though there's also a really good question of if they even could, since id had very little to do with it - it was mostly a Williams/Midway production, and with them being history now, who knows who holds the rights.

 

But Id still has the licence, no? They just gave them permission to make the game. So they were like a publisher.

[Dark Pulse]

2 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

 

But Id still has the licence, no? They just gave them permission to make the game. So they were like a publisher.

id merely gave them the blessing to use the engine and license. The actual game was made by Williams/Midway. So while id would have been the one to okay the branding, the actual creators of the game would also have to give an okay, and so would whoever holds the current rights to it (they are held by a number of people who bought up various Midway properties, basically).

 

Rights for old games is a pretty thorny business.

[whatup876]

15 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

I wish Id made Doom 64 EX official on PC by releasing on on Steam where it belongs. I would probably generate some Doom: Eternal hype too as well as some extra cash. I never had a N64 and my first experience of it was on the PC.

D64 EX is like a fanmade port but isn't Turok on Switch using an (originally) unofficial made port?

I know Hugo Martin mentioned D64 in an interview about D4's Switch port and they've made some references to that game in their social media (and even Eternal's gameplay showcase).

I remember hearing that id may own Doom 64 but not the soundtrack because that still belongs to Aubrey Hodges.

Besides the trademark issues, it can also (maybe) depend on demand for it.

 

[Quasar]

On 3/19/2019 at 5:33 AM, Dark Pulse said:

id merely gave them the blessing to use the engine and license. The actual game was made by Williams/Midway. So while id would have been the one to okay the branding, the actual creators of the game would also have to give an okay, and so would whoever holds the current rights to it (they are held by a number of people who bought up various Midway properties, basically).

 

Rights for old games is a pretty thorny business.

That actually depends entirely and only on the details of the original contract between id and Williams. It's extremely unlikely that id granted any ownership of IP through the contract, IMO.

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, Quasar said:

That actually depends entirely and only on the details of the original contract between id and Williams. It's extremely unlikely that id granted any ownership of IP through the contract, IMO.

Yeah, obviously not the IP rights. The game itself is more what I was getting at.

 

It's probably a case of "id owns the IP, Midway owns the game," since the levels aren't the original levels, the monsters got redesigned, the engine was extensively retooled, and so on. Hence why I said id basically granted them the engine and use of the IP, but the game itself remained with Midway, and so whoever owns that now is definitely a good question.

[MajorRawne]

@Hyde, thank you for your fascinating and informative insights.

 

I've been weirdly obsessed with PSX Doom since my teens, and have a couple of questions about it. Actually I've got loads but they are all jumbled up in my head!

 

Was there a conscious decision to make PSX Doom feel more of a horror game? Or did you always see PSX Doom as a faithful port, and were surprised that PSX Doomers consider it something akin to survival horror?

 

Regarding the music - did you just give Aubrey Hodges free reign, or did you request a horror soundtrack, or did you expect something similar to the original soundtrack?

 

Finally - how do you feel PSX Doom stacks up against the original? I personally feel that every single aspect of the original was improved on, and the Playstation's limits actually made the game feel more cohesive.

 

Thank you very, very much for creating the scariest, most immersive game. It really has had an impact on my life.

 

 

[Hyde]

On 4/6/2019 at 4:02 AM, MajorRawne said:

@Hyde, thank you for your fascinating and informative insights.

 

I've been weirdly obsessed with PSX Doom since my teens, and have a couple of questions about it. Actually I've got loads but they are all jumbled up in my head!

 

Was there a conscious decision to make PSX Doom feel more of a horror game? Or did you always see PSX Doom as a faithful port, and were surprised that PSX Doomers consider it something akin to survival horror?

 

Regarding the music - did you just give Aubrey Hodges free reign, or did you request a horror soundtrack, or did you expect something similar to the original soundtrack?

 

Finally - how do you feel PSX Doom stacks up against the original? I personally feel that every single aspect of the original was improved on, and the Playstation's limits actually made the game feel more cohesive.

 

Thank you very, very much for creating the scariest, most immersive game. It really has had an impact on my life.

 

 

 

Hey Major! Let's see what I can recall-

 

There wasn't a decision to make it feel anymore different than the original. The goal was to show off what the PSX could add to Doom mostly. I'll bet that horror feel comes mostly from the music. It changed the pace of the game for sure. It made it feel more sinister, goal or not, whereas PC Doom was more metal and had a fast tempo. I remember playing the original more run-n-gun but playing the PSX much slower, despite the levels being the same. The controller input probably had some part of that too. No mouse twitch.

 

Aubrey was 100% responsible for the music. He gets every bit of credit deserved for going that route, and it was perfect. We miiight have suggested certain tracks for certain levels, but that'd be the most input we had, if I'm even correct there.

 

Interesting question. I think it stacks up great of course! But there'd be no PSX Doom without PC Doom so I'd say we hit our goal of creating a different 'feeling' experience within the world originally created. PC had better control, network/modem play, moddability, etc etc. As this was console, we focused on improving the single player experience most (link play was a hassle and we had no data how popular it was/wasn't). PC Doom was unlike anything I had played and had tons of atmosphere 'then'. A world you felt you were in. We had to try and make PSX Doom feel different and relatively fresh against what everyone knew very well by then. We also wanted to convince even owners of the PC versions to buy the PSX version. The music, the lighting and the compilation aspect (size!) definitely got eyes on it and pushed it well beyond 'just a port'. It sold incredibly well and that was a mix of our improvements, the strong license, and of course, the fact it was on console with an insane install base.

 

Appreciate the kind words! PSX Doom is still something we're incredibly proud of decades later.

[MajorRawne]

Thank you Hyde, it is really good to hear from someone who actually worked on PSX Doom and it is equally good to know you enjoyed working on it.

 

Quote

I remember playing the original more run-n-gun but playing the PSX much slower, despite the levels being the same.

 

It's very interesting to hear this as it's possibly the most common remark gamers make. What a moment it must have been when you realised that PSX Doom was surpassing the other ports and even taking on its own identity.

 

Quote

PC had better control, network/modem play, moddability, etc etc. As this was console, we focused on improving the single player experience most (link play was a hassle and we had no data how popular it was/wasn't).

 

Trust me, I spent probably hundreds of hours playing this on multiplayer with my brother and friends. Whoever chose which maps to put on the Playstation Doom discs was a bloody genius. We used to hotseat to play deathmatch (weirdly, Sever the Wicked was the all-time greatest DM map). Not being able to "screenwatch" was a plus, as we'd sit the televisions back to back. But every single one of us preferred co-op. Not only was it hilarious, the sense of horror was increased because inevitably someone would die with all the ammo. There is little to create fear and powerlessness like having 12 bullets and your bare hands to get through Deimos Lab with that terrifying music. The Marshes had a cool gimmick where you could turn the lights off for the whole map - and hearing the Cyberdemon stomping slowly after you is indescribable. We used to hide in the BFG cave. Knowing The Marshes has a romantic story linked to it is unexpectedly awesome.

 

Final Doom hurt as we expected another 60 or so maps to blast through. But there were only 30 maps with no secrets and no exclusives. Probably everyone who played it spent ages trying to reach the "secret" exit on Ballistyx (which was actually just a normal exit from a DM-only area). Were your team feeling burned out with PSX Doom by this point? Were you looking more towards Doom 64 instead, or were you only given a short time to make PSX Final Doom? Or did you simply feel that the "cut" maps didn't fit in with your vision for Doom, so you just binned them?

 

Also, how long did it take you on average to convert maps to run on the PSX? Were there any "exclusive" levels created which id Software rejected?

Edited April 13, 2019 by MajorRawne

[kmxexii]

@Hyde

 

Not to crosspost but I wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed my recent playthrough of Doom 64 and wrote an in-depth review.

[MajorRawne]

@kmxexii: I'm reading your writeup as I play through Doom 64 EX. Thanks for including a link to where it can be downloaded. I just finished the first map and now cannot explain why it used to frustrate me: the switches were clearly marked. Maybe I just didn't have autorun enabled.

 

Initial opinions are that the gameplay is slower than the PSX version in every way: turning speed, movement speed, weapon reload etc. Autorun is mandatory. It's quite irritating using the mouse as I had to crank sensitivity up to turn at a useful speed and it seems twitchy when turning and strafing at the same time. This is with the patch installed - thanks for mentioning the patch btw.

 

Graphics are a big step back from classic Doom. It's like when the Honda Prelude changed from the 1995 model to the '96 facelift. The opening map is ugly and bland in the style of Tom Hall's alphas. The Pink Demons don't look as bad as I remember but the zombiemen are nearly impossible to tell apart and the walls are like two colours, brown and grey, for the whole map. The weapons are truly ugly too and should not have been redesigned IMO. Gameplay is meh, it's slow paced but feels like someone cast Slow on you. The lack of shotgun reload animation is weird and confusing, and there are way too many Pink Demons. While the lack of pixellating is refreshing, to be honest I think I'd prefer it if things were blurrier!

 

Well this is only map one, the game has yet to open up and I'm yet to adapt to its style. Hyde and the team absolutely adored Doom 64 so let's press on and find out what the fuss is about...

[Dark Pulse]

2 minutes ago, MajorRawne said:

@kmxexii: I'm reading your writeup as I play through Doom 64 EX. Thanks for including a link to where it can be downloaded. I just finished the first map and now cannot explain why it used to frustrate me: the switches were clearly marked. Maybe I just didn't have autorun enabled.

 

Initial opinions are that the gameplay is slower than the PSX version in every way: turning speed, movement speed, weapon reload etc. Autorun is mandatory. It's quite irritating using the mouse as I had to crank sensitivity up to turn at a useful speed and it seems twitchy when turning and strafing at the same time. This is with the patch installed - thanks for mentioning the patch btw.

 

Graphics are a big step back from classic Doom. It's like when the Honda Prelude changed from the 1995 model to the '96 facelift. The opening map is ugly and bland in the style of Tom Hall's alphas. The Pink Demons don't look as bad as I remember but the zombiemen are nearly impossible to tell apart and the walls are like two colours, brown and grey, for the whole map. The weapons are truly ugly too and should not have been redesigned IMO. Gameplay is meh, it's slow paced but feels like someone cast Slow on you. The lack of shotgun reload animation is weird and confusing, and there are way too many Pink Demons. While the lack of pixellating is refreshing, to be honest I think I'd prefer it if things were blurrier!

 

Well this is only map one, the game has yet to open up and I'm yet to adapt to its style. Hyde and the team absolutely adored Doom 64 so let's press on and find out what the fuss is about...

Believe me, it does get better and a lot more clever and creative. Don't judge a book by its cover, for sure.

[MajorRawne]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Believe me, it does get better and a lot more clever and creative. Don't judge a book by its cover, for sure.

 

Having now played several more maps, you're right, Doom 64 definitely has its own style and that style is scaring the crap out of you. The graphics must have been done by the X-Com Apocalypse art team which is a shame as it puts people off a good game. I can't recognise the weapons before picking them up and the Lost Souls seem to be horse heads for no reason. Are they meant to be Baron skulls or something? They remind me of the Gurning Man.

 

The scripting is impressive and the use of light and colour is superb. By map 5 it was starting to wear how every single room is scripted, so let's hope this calms down a bit, and some of the crusher traps were mean. The first time playing through each map is what my driving instructor would no doubt call "creep and peep" - very scary, definitely better with the lights off. This game seems intent on proving that "It's not your father's Doom".

[Dark Pulse]

You already missed the super secret level, by the way. :)

 

(Possibly the first normal secret level as well!) 

[MajorRawne]

Thanks for the heads up. Was that the tall pillars leading to a red doorway? I couldn't get in there and the automap has been revised since PSX Doom - it didn't show a doorway or anything, just a normal blank wall.

[Dark Pulse]

46 minutes ago, MajorRawne said:

Thanks for the heads up. Was that the tall pillars leading to a red doorway? I couldn't get in there and the automap has been revised since PSX Doom - it didn't show a doorway or anything, just a normal blank wall.

If you're talking about the Super Secret level, nope. I'll give you four levels of hints - you decide how deep you want to be spoiled.

 

Spoiler

You have to do something on MAP01: Staging Area.

 

Spoiler

Think about all the different things you can shoot - and in what order you shoot them.

 

Spoiler

You're not a person who tends to blow up the barrels, are you...?

 

Spoiler

Blow up all the barrels in MAP01, *EXCEPT* for the one at the very start (where you drop down). As you progress through the level, you'll eventually come upon a teleporter that will teleport you back up to here.

 

When you've shot every single barrel except for the one at the start, teleport back, then shoot the last one. A door behind you (inside the room behind the start where you get the Berserk Pack, right behind the blood pool on the floor) will briefly open up to reveal the secret exit to MAP32: Hectic.

 

You have four seconds to get in there before it closes.

 

If for some reason it doesn't happen, you missed a barrel. Refer to Doom Wiki for all the barrel locations and try again.

 

 

 

 

God help you once you find that super secret level, by the way. But the payoff is worth it. Be glad you can save scum on Doom 64 EX, unlike the original Doom 64, where you'd have to complete the beast in one shot with no in-map saves.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[MajorRawne]

Damn... looks like I got shafted then. A super-secret exit on the first map of the game? The final boss is much harder to kill without all the super secret levels, right?

 

The gameplay is not difficult so far but can best be described as "a mean-spirited evolution of PSX Doom". There are traps you can't avoid the first time and the secrets are insane. Missing these secrets detracts from your experience, so you go through every map wondering if you just screwed yourself. You need to know everything in advance.

 

Terraria has a riff on this where you get into a loop of having to kill a superboss to get the weapon to kill that superboss.

[kmxexii]

The super secret level only gives you the features (cheats) menu which AFAIK comes unlocked in Doom64 EX.

 

i tried out the final boss fight without using the laser gun and you can still just rush it with the BFG. The fully-powered laser stun locks the shit out of whatever you're shooting. IMO both methods are preferable to trying to dodge its attacks and take it down with conventional weapons. 

[Dark Pulse]

4 hours ago, MajorRawne said:

Damn... looks like I got shafted then. A super-secret exit on the first map of the game? The final boss is much harder to kill without all the super secret levels, right?

The super-secret level has no bearing on killing the final boss, and you can safely miss that secret level as well without it impacting how hard it is to down the final boss.

 

But if you miss the other three? Oh yeah, you're gonna have some "fun." And by "fun" I mean the sort of fun you get by chewing aluminum foil.

 

If you want a spoiler guide on what levels to keep an eye out for...

 

Spoiler

MAP01 -> MAP32 (Super Secret)

MAP04 -> MAP29 (Secret)

MAP12 -> MAP30 (Secret)

MAP18 -> MAP31 (Secret)

The normal game's progression will go from 01-24, then skips to 28. 25-27 are extra levels (not the secrets) that get accessed via the Features menu, which in original Doom 64 was unlocked via completing MAP32.

 

2 hours ago, kmxexii said:

The super secret level only gives you the features (cheats) menu which AFAIK comes unlocked in Doom64 EX. 

EX gives you something else in exchange though, IIRC. And if you want to say "I 100%'d Doom 64," you still need to take a trip there.

[kmxexii]

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

EX gives you something else in exchange though, IIRC. And if you want to say "I 100%'d Doom 64," you still need to take a trip there.

 

I just booted up Doom64 EX to see whether or not this was true but if beating "Hectic" gives the player anything unique then it's completely unmentioned. I'd like to know what you're hinting at. If you're alluding to the ability to Jump - which isn't found in the Features menu anymore - then it's been moved to Options > Setup where it's available as a gameplay toggle.

 

I would never dispute experiencing "Hectic" as part of the Doom 64 experience. Its delightful dickishness knows no bounds.

[Dark Pulse]

1 minute ago, kmxexii said:

 

I just booted up Doom64 EX to see whether or not this was true but if beating "Hectic" gives the player anything unique then it's completely unmentioned. I'd like to know what you're hinting at. If you're alluding to the ability to Jump - which isn't found in the Features menu anymore - then it's been moved to Options > Setup where it's available as a gameplay toggle.

 

I would never dispute experiencing "Hectic" as part of the Doom 64 experience. Its delightful dickishness knows no bounds.

Must be operating on old D64EX knowledge then, because yeah, jumping is what I was alluding to.

 

So then Hectic is pure bragging rights I guess, though nominally it does get you a Rocket Launcher damn early - if you can survive it.

 

Wonder if the grab trick that could trivialize the map works in EX.

[The Nate]

4 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Wonder if the grab trick that could trivialize the map works in EX. 

I did that on my last WMD playthrough on EX and it worked perfectly.