Why did Duke fail where Doom succeeded?

[Altazimuth]

I had to use BUILD/MAPEDIT when doing some work. This just required identifying misplaced vertices between two sector portals for a few levels (to create hash-based map hacks that would fix these errors in the retail levels). Just this most basic of task required to to fumble around awkwardly with Dosbox in an editor that, even with instructions, was deeply confusing and difficult to use. Later on I was fixing a bug and wanted to make a test map to assist with resolving a bug. This took an age of wrangling in MAPEDIT in what I could have done in less than one minute in Doombuilder.

I'm sure that you can get used to it, and people clearly have if you look at mods like Death Wish, but that far steeper barrier to entry will mean the modding/mapping community ends up smaller than that of Doom, which has far more accessible tools and a wealth of documentation on how to get started.

[printz]

On 6/11/2020 at 11:03 PM, hypoactive said:

Another thing to bring up is the lack of Build source ports. Until the release of BuildGDX, you only had EDuke32. Compare this to the fucking abundance of source ports Doom has. Not to mention the developer of EDuke32 shittalked BuildGDX lol

How come nobody has mentioned Raze yet?! 

[seed]

On 6/12/2020 at 1:57 AM, Graf Zahl said:

Where Doom made sure that the important things like textures, thing numbers and light levels are done in a mapping friendly way, the Build engine has gone out of its way to present all its data in the form the engine internally needs it, i.e. textures by number, sprites only have a texture number as identifier and the light level is exposed directly in the form the engine internally works with what it calls "light" (it makes even less sense than what Doom did)

Duke also had the problem that it very, very poorly exposed its engine features, like map actions etc.

 

Doom was the total opposite, it made modding very easy and more importantly, easy to learn!

 

Basically, Build was developed to be more machine friendly primarily rather than user friendly, as it was the case with Doom.

 

14 hours ago, Gez said:

I believe the worst modding language is ERM, from the Heroes of Might & Magic 3 modding scene. (It's not from the vanilla game.)

 

Oh my fucking god, and I thought I've seen everything when I opened up some parts of Duke's original code with its hackish and cryptic variables.

 

But this is on a whole new level, just how in hell is this bullshit even human readable? It looks like random nonsense lol. Alright, we should take that back then, CON is good in comparison with ERM...

[Graf Zahl]

4 hours ago, printz said:

How come nobody has mentioned Raze yet?! 

 

Let's hope it increases interest in Duke mapping when I finally manage to get it to load a Build compatible UDMF variant...

Unfortunately there's some more basic work to be done first.

 

 

[Doom_Dude]

Oh man, this thread reminded me that back in late 99 or so, I tried to get the damned Duke editor to work and never did. Memory is hazy, but I wrote a snail mail letter to 3D Realms in Texas (had no internet) and they replied with a nice, detailed letter on how to work it out. Wish I still had it but I recycled it years ago. Shortly after I found DoomCad on a disk that came with The Doom Hacker's Guide. So I was all, to hell with Duke, I'm doing Doom maps now.

 

This Raze thing does sound interesting. Gonna have to check that out for sure. Duke was always such a fun game.

[Biodegradable]

Accessibility to the dev tools seems to definitely be the most prominent reason why, in terms of an active mapping/modding scene, Doom wins out over Duke because the Build engine is so unwieldy. Looking at DN3's page on ModDB though, there does seem to be at least some people out there making some stuff currently, like this Alien Armageddon mod that's been in development for a few years now.

 

 

[seablock]

duke's character gets kind of old after a while. when you first play it, all the I'll rip your head off and shit down your neeeeeeeeeck stuff is pretty funny but it can get tiring fast. i'm sure the whole DNF fiasco did a number on ol duke nuke them's relevance as well

[Redneckerz]

16 hours ago, Gez said:

I believe the worst modding language is ERM, from the Heroes of Might & Magic 3 modding scene. (It's not from the vanilla game.)

Erm......

Anyone who calls that easy to use probably also likes esoteric programming languages like Brainfuck.

15 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

What in the world have I witnessed ? Even CON is a million times more understandable than this.

Perhaps CON means you are in CONtrol, after all :P

[Woolie Wool]

3 hours ago, daisuki milk said:

duke's character gets kind of old after a while. when you first play it, all the I'll rip your head off and shit down your neeeeeeeeeck stuff is pretty funny but it can get tiring fast. i'm sure the whole DNF fiasco did a number on ol duke nuke them's relevance as well

Even if Duke Nukem Forever turned out to actually be a good game, Duke Nukem himself still would have sunk it. He is so '90s in the worst ways that he makes Sonic the Hedgehog look timeless.

[Vic Vos]

Kinda offtopic - is there a "wad archive"-like thing for Duke? I've seen one, but is it maintained? Or is everything scattered? Same for the other Build games.

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Even if Duke Nukem Forever turned out to actually be a good game, Duke Nukem himself still would have sunk it. He is so '90s in the worst ways that he makes Sonic the Hedgehog look timeless. 

 

To me he looks like a caricature of those 80's action heroes with a severe testosterone imbalance. Actually, when I hear Duke talking I can almost picture Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando" - that's somehow the template Duke was modeled after - hilarious one-liners all included.

[seed]

16 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

To me he looks like a caricature of those 80's action heroes with a severe testosterone imbalance. Actually, when I hear Duke talking I can almost picture Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando" - that's somehow the template Duke was modeled after - hilarious one-liners all included.

 

You're not the only one picturing Arnold in your mind when you think about Duke, that's exactly what I'm thinking too. Minus the testosterone imbalance, I can see that in DNF2011's Duke - along with plenty of sexual frustration -, but not 90s Duke.

 

And no, I heavily disagree with the notion that Duke is too old fashioned for this century. In fact, on the current market with all the hideously boring heroes who look like carbon copies of each other, I'd rather have more over-the-top characters like him, or anti-heroes like Caleb. He would need an update, sure, to not be stuck forever into the past, but he can still very much work. If Lo Wang could, who I daresay was A LOT more difficult to resurrect in this day and age than Caleb or Duke, it should be totally doable to bring them back too.

Edited June 13, 2020 by seed

[reflex17]

I was a Duke3d mapper from 1996 onward, I released 2 maps, one in 2007 and the sequel in 2014, during that last 7 years I was more involved in the community, so I have a decent knowledge of the port history because I used them extensively. I made dozens of maps that I shared among friends for fun and for multiplayer back in the day when I was in high school. The build engine isn't hard to use or get into, I learned how to use it in a couple hours a day for a week when I was like 15.

Build was actually more user-friendly in terms of making maps when compared to something from the time like DEU. It was on-par with something like DCK that had simplified construction. There are things the build engine can do that Doom engine still can't, but since UDMF, Gzdoom and the other advanced ports have been incorporated into Doom along with more friendly editors the difference from 1996 is now reversed. I don't see what's so difficult about it though, there was documentation, sector tag/effect lists etc. With the example maps that came with the game plus a few tutorial maps that were made early on it was no trouble, just taking the maps apart and going by example.

Doom was always more popular because it's an older game, both fanbases were just as dedicated, only different sizes. It's only been in the last few years that Duke3d community's output has taken a nosedive, it was never rapid-fire but the thing that drive the Duke IP into the ground was Duke Nukem Forever. A 'good' new game will cause a surge in popularity like we've seen with the newer Doom games and bring newer members to the community. Duke's community was always resting only on the popularity of the original and the value of the community works which was mostly very high. You didn't see a lot of Terrywads in Duke, for example. You take the good with the bad, I guess hehe.

[Woolie Wool]

4 hours ago, seed said:

 

You're not the only one picturing Arnold in your mind when you think about Duke, that's exactly what I'm thinking too. Minus the testosterone imbalance, I can see that in DNF2011's Duke - along with plenty of sexual frustration -, but not 90s Duke.

 

And no, I heavily disagree with the notion that Duke is too old fashioned for this century. In fact, on the current market with all the hideously boring heroes who look like carbon copies of each other, I'd rather have more over-the-top characters like him, or anti-heroes like Caleb. He would need an update, sure, to not be stuck forever into the past, but he can still very much work. If Lo Wang could, who I daresay was A LOT more difficult to resurrect in this day and age than Caleb or Duke, it should be totally doable to bring them back too.

 

Caleb is way more suitable for modern times than Duke is, so much so that you wouldn't have to do anything to him to make him a viable character today. Meanwhile, Lo Wang was so bad that they had to give his name to a completely different character to make Shadow Warrior 2011 possible, and even then his whole insincere "I'm totally not an Asian stereotype, totally not, please don't cancel me" vibe dragged down the new Shadow Warrior games every time he opened his mouth.

[Biodegradable]

Considering how insanely well nostalgia has worked as a commodity within creative media over the past 10 years, I find the argument of Duke Nukem-a parody of 80s/90s action movie protagonist cheese-to be "too dated" to be embraced by the popular zeitgeist today to be a little unconvincing to say the least. 

[seed]

5 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Considering how insanely well nostalgia has worked as a commodity within creative media over the past 10 years, I find the argument of Duke Nukem-a parody of 80s/90s action movie protagonist cheese-to be "too dated" to be embraced by the popular zeitgeist today to be a little unconvincing to say the least. 

 

And also considering the number of people who always want rehashes of the same thing forever - see how many still want id Software to make classic Doom 2.0 for instance -, I find such a theory absolutely baffling honestly. It can work, and quite well I say.

 

10 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Caleb is way more suitable for modern times than Duke is, so much so that you wouldn't have to do anything to him to make him a viable character today. Meanwhile, Lo Wang was so bad that they had to give his name to a completely different character to make Shadow Warrior 2011 possible, and even then his whole insincere "I'm totally not an Asian stereotype, totally not, please don't cancel me" vibe dragged down the new Shadow Warrior games every time he opened his mouth.

 

No, all of them would need an update to feel more like they're ready to jump into the 21st century.

 

Caleb is mostly fine, but just like Duke, he would need some of his one-liners to be adjusted, regardless of whether they decide to make him a full-fledged character that interacts with others some more, or just throw one-liners when doing different things like he did in the original games. Some old references are fine, but I wouldn't want to hear him referencing exactly the same things he did back in the '90s, same for Duke. Character traits should stay there, but changes will be necessary nonetheless.

 

As for Wang (it's 2013 BTW), honestly I am more than fine with what FWH did, and I consider that as far as they could have possibly gone in this day and age without risking the series dying at arrival. Sure, I liked the gross humor of the old Wang and all, but in the current climate that would absolutely not work, there's no way it could. I think they tried their damnest to do the character justice, even though that's bound to disappoint some because yes, he's like a whole new character now who barely shares any more common ground with the original, apart from being Asian stereotypes. But Wang is a character that absolutely needed an overhaul if he was to work at all in this age, otherwise the series would've completely bombed back in 2013.

[hypoactive]

9 hours ago, seed said:

Caleb is mostly fine, but just like Duke, he would need some of his one-liners to be adjusted, regardless of whether they decide to make him a full-fledged character that interacts with others some more, or just throw one-liners when doing different things like he did in the original games. Some old references are fine, but I wouldn't want to hear him referencing exactly the same things he did back in the '90s, same for Duke. Character traits should stay there, but changes will be necessary nonetheless.

I should think that douk should be written as like, the ultimate form of masculinity.

'luv earf

'luv peeple

'luv wimin

'ate Alens

simple as

[hypoactive]

I don't wanna doublepost but I'm trying to find help on how to make silent teleporters that don't freak out on me.

I can't make a thread, it's been 3 days already and the admins on Duke4's forums haven't let me in. I can't search for a thread, I searched "silent teleporters" and nothing useful came up. I can't search again because "flood protection." I already scoured the entire wiki page on teleporters and I can't find anything that helps.

 

what. the. ass.

[Wadmodder Shalton]

There was a utility called WAD2MAP included with the Atomic Edition, to convert DOOM maps into Duke 3D. It's commonly available on many websites, but dare I say to you, it's not good. Taking an existing DOOM wad and converting it to Duke 3D isn't the way to go.

[cybdmn]

On 6/13/2020 at 8:31 PM, seed said:

And no, I heavily disagree with the notion that Duke is too old fashioned for this century. In fact, on the current market with all the hideously boring heroes who look like carbon copies of each other, I'd rather have more over-the-top characters like him, or anti-heroes like Caleb. He would need an update, sure, to not be stuck forever into the past, but he can still very much work. If Lo Wang could, who I daresay was A LOT more difficult to resurrect in this day and age than Caleb or Duke, it should be totally doable to bring them back too.

 

That's more or less exactly my opinion. The update Duke would need is a mostly refresh of his onliners to newer action movies, because i think many younger customers have no connection to the movies Dukes character and onliners are based of. Army of Darkness or They Live aren't exactly well known today. Even Die Hard isn't as well known as it was in the 90ies.

[frag enabler]

1 minute ago, cybdmn said:

 

That's more or less exactly my opinion. The update Duke would need is a mostly refresh of his onliners to newer action movies, because i think many younger customers have no connection to the movies Dukes character and onliners are based of. Army of Darkness or They Live aren't exactly well known today. Even Die Hard isn't as well known as it was in the 90ies.

You can make a Duke game with witty/badass one-liners without citing ancient action movies - just look at Manhattan Project. The only ones I can recall is "Take that, you dirty rat", which isn't even a real quote, and "Say hello to my little friend". There's also a Star Trek reference, but that's taken from the TV series. Everything else is just original smack talk.

[MrFlibble]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:47 PM, seed said:

Yes, GDX incorporates code from the Blood Alpha as well, but it's not much I don't think since the game changed massively since then.

I think that the problem was not in the presence of the alpha code per se (I gather it was mostly used as reference for analysing released Blood binaries, rather than incorporated into GDX code directly), rather that using leaked code in such development is incompatible with the notion of clean room reverse engineering. The EDuke32 team has its standards and they do adhere to them.

 

As for the OP's question, it occurred to me that Duke3D did not fail, it's just that Doom is The Simpsons of 2.5D first-person shooters, and Duke is Family Guy (and Heretic is Futurama of course).

[seed]

6 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

I think that the problem was not in the presence of the alpha code per se (I gather it was mostly used as reference for analysing released Blood binaries, rather than incorporated into GDX code directly), rather that using leaked code in such development is incompatible with the notion of clean room reverse engineering. The EDuke32 team has its standards and they do adhere to them.

 

Well, it's both really.

 

It was indeed also the simple presence of the code itself, which defeated the point of a clean reverse-engineering project that NBlood (or Fresh Supply actually) is. And yes the said code still exists to this day I think, I know for a fact that last year when some features got ported from GDX to NBlood by NoOne I remember nuke cleaned up some things and purged some alpha code that seeped into the codebase along with them.

[hybridial]

7 hours ago, cybdmn said:

 

That's more or less exactly my opinion. The update Duke would need is a mostly refresh of his onliners to newer action movies

 

That's the major problem, what has there been in regards to newer action movies that are even worth referencing at this point? It might be cynical to say it but I don't think there has been much of anything worth talking about since the heydays of your Schwarzneggers and Stallones, because film making itself has changed so much and scripts are not what they used to be and characters are for sure not what they used to be. And even John Wick (which honestly, I did not care much for the character or the movies) who's had some success, he's not a talkative character, there's no one liners in those movies and he's about as far removed from Duke personality wise as you can get. 

 

Honestly I love Duke 3D but I don't see a way of translating his character and not making him boring because that would reflect the times a lot more. Lo Wang's reinvention was if anything easier because it tossed the old character completely away and you could do that with Lo Wang because his character was just not that iconic for anyone (I don't think that much of old Lo Wang I just really love the game) 

 

Caleb's easy because anti-heroes don't really go out of style. 

 

 

[seed]

22 minutes ago, hybridial said:

Caleb's easy because anti-heroes don't really go out of style. 

 

And basically a glorified, horror version of Client Eastwood's movies set in the Wild West. Surely that can be reimagined to some extent.

 

23 minutes ago, hybridial said:

That's the major problem, what has there been in regards to newer action movies that are even worth referencing at this point? It might be cynical to say it but I don't think there has been much of anything worth talking about since the heydays of your Schwarzneggers and Stallones, because film making itself has changed so much and scripts are not what they used to be and characters are for sure not what they used to be. And even John Wick (which honestly, I did not care much for the character or the movies) who's had some success, he's not a talkative character, there's no one liners in those movies and he's about as far removed from Duke personality wise as you can get. 

 

Honestly I love Duke 3D but I don't see a way of translating his character and not making him boring because that would reflect the times a lot more. Lo Wang's reinvention was if anything easier because it tossed the old character completely away and you could do that with Lo Wang because his character was just not that iconic for anyone (I don't think that much of old Lo Wang I just really love the game) 

 

Indeed.

 

It won't be that easy since the industry of nowadays just isn't the same anymore, everything about it is different, budget, writing, acting, etc. But most good movies do have memorable quotes, maybe just use some of those to reforge the character, after all, the original characters we're not full rip-offs of other characters either. Obviously the days of Stallone's and Arnold's is gone now, so there's no way to base him on just one character anymore, or a few. John Wick for all its strengths just doesn't talk much, and a talking protagonist turned silent? I dunno, but that sounds underwhelming to me.

 

But I disagree that Wang was easier. I think it was quite difficult to bring him back in a way where old timers could still very much tell he's still unmistakenly Wang, but without the more "tired" jokes the original had, and as a result they've basically had to rewrite the character from the ground up.

[frag enabler]

Probably unrelated to the topic and hand, given it compares the original Doom to DN3D. I've been playing through DNF lately and during some of the later enemy encounters I realized that the combat suddenly felt oddly familiar. Executions to refill your hp, quickslot subweapons, freezing enemies, remote detonation, quickswaps... The only aspect that's lacking is mobility and space. Not a fan of everything being hitscan either. Still, Eternal/2016 feel like they've been taking notes from Duke's playbook... a little bit.