Doomer Boards Project 48 (review)

[Gibbon]

1 minute ago, Kontra Kommando said:

In all honesty, I didn't account for testing for performance on other computer models.

 

You could have a lot of programming knowledge, and not know how to start a community.

To be honest, the way you talk to people on Doomer Boards, it is amazing there is a community there at all.

[GarrettChan]

1 minute ago, Kontra Kommando said:

I find a lot of people were mostly turned off to that.

It is because I'm not using (G)ZDoom at all. A limit-removing mapset is easier for me to access.

[Kontra Kommando]

4 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

It is because I'm not using (G)ZDoom at all. A limit-removing mapset is easier for me to access.

If this is what most people are using nowadays, I'll probably shift over to making stuff for that.

 

5 hours ago, Misty said:

This seems like shitpost/jokewad set under DBP name, you need a stroke of genius to understand and appreciate it. 

 

You know, I am kind of struggling with why people think this is a joke wad, when you have other DBP themes such as this:

 

 

 

On 6/2/2022 at 1:35 AM, Pistoolkip said:

despite its name and appearance, not a joke wad.
 

 

 

 

Again, I am at a loss as why my mod is a jokewad, but DBPs like this aren't:

 

 

[Gez]

About the randomness thing:

 

I'd suggest taking a leaf from Reelism and making the maps more suited for the chaotic absurdity going on. In fact the project could probably be turned into a series of reels for Reelism 2 and it'd have been better received.

 

1 hour ago, Kontra Kommando said:

Again, I am at a loss as why my mod is a jokewad, but DBPs like this aren't:

Basically it's the map design. A humorous theme but with serious gameplay is not going to be perceived the same as something with clusterfuck gameplay.

 

The tiny cramped rooms are just not much of a crowd pleaser, even if I suppose their justification is to encourage melee combat.

[Graf Zahl]

13 minutes ago, Kontra Kommando said:

 

Again, I am at a loss as why my mod is a jokewad, but DBPs like this aren't:

 

 

Who says this is considered a jokewad? WEll, in a way it's a joke of a WAD, but that ultimately means something entirely different. :P

 

There's a major difference between something with a funny ot weird theme and something that is just bad. Most of these other DBP prjects at least play well, although I have to admit that many are a one-off affair with little replay value. But at least that one time they provide some nice distraction.

 

This one on the other hand looks like some serious effort on the outside, but the gameplay it provides is utter garbage (sorry, but it has to be said.)

I hate to say it, but the closest thing I can think of when comparing this to another project would be Doom Rampage Edition, honorable winner of the "worst WAD" Cacoward.

 

In a way, it's a random collage of all the worst aspects I have seen in mods for GZDoom, all lumped together in one single package that could make a good case for declaring vanilla WADs superior, if someone thought this was what GZDoom mods looked like normally.

 

[Kontra Kommando]

4 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Who says this is considered a jokewad? WEll, in a way it's a joke of a WAD, but that ultimately means something entirely different. :P

 

There's a major difference between something with a funny ot weird theme and something that is just bad. Most of these other DBP prjects at least play well, although I have to admit that many are a one-off affair with little replay value. But at least that one time they provide some nice distraction.

 

This one on the other hand looks like some serious effort on the outside, but the gameplay it provides is utter garbage (sorry, but it has to be said.)

I hate to say it, but the closest thing I can think of when comparing this to another project would be Doom Rampage Edition, honorable winner of the "worst WAD" Cacoward.

 

In a way, it's a random collage of all the worst aspects I have seen in mods for GZDoom, all lumped together in one single package that could make a good case for declaring vanilla WADs superior, if someone thought this was what GZDoom mods looked like normally.

 

 

That's fine, the gameplay can always be adjusted. I actually had less enemies in previous versions. Would having less of them spawn help?

 

Each vanilla monster actor is replaced with a random spawner of the other factions. It used to be that sometimes nothing would spawn in its place. I could implement that back in, and make the chance of it happen increase.

[Hitboi]

On 6/1/2022 at 6:59 PM, Silent Wolf said:

Very informative review. Out of interest, have the DBP people had a release thread here on DW? If not, why just on MODDB?

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

What? DBP has a non limit-removing mapset? I lost all hope on it now.

2 hours ago, Gibbon said:

For me, this has absolutely ruined the prestige that DBP had.  From Auger Zenith and the Dreamcatcher to this.  It is an absolutely huge disparity in quality.  I think all that’s happened here is poor time management, poor ability to push out a project that can be done in the time allotted and poor vision.

I don’t think I’ll touch another DBP project if this is what we will be expecting in the future.  It’s not only harmed the prestige but it’s harmed what DBP meant.  High quality monthly wads.

What? This is clearly not an official DBP project, you people need to understand this.

Edit: Welp, I guess I'm wrong??

Edited June 2, 2022 by Hitboi

[Antkibo]

I thank you for your effort because, at the end, I'm getting something for free. But I'll try to give you my two cents: dial things up little by little. I mean, what you have here is something too different from the usual DBP project, obviously people will react negatively. Next time, use GZDOOM conservatively, like DBP veterans did with DBK01: Dungeon Synths.

[Kontra Kommando]

3 minutes ago, Hitboi said:

What? This is clearly not an official DBP project, you people need to understand this. Also, @Kontra Kommando is not in the project lead list.

It is indeed official, and that hasn't been updated yet.

[Jaccident]

3 minutes ago, Antkibo said:

I'm getting something for free

Tinnitus?

[Hitboi]

Just now, Kontra Kommando said:

It is indeed official, and that hasn't been updated yet.

Okay, looking at a DBP Forums thread I believe you, to some extent.

[Kinsie]

1 hour ago, Kontra Kommando said:

 

You know, I am kind of struggling with why people think this is a joke wad, when you have other DBP themes such as this:

 

 

1 hour ago, Kontra Kommando said:

 

Again, I am at a loss as why my mod is a jokewad, but DBPs like this aren't:

 

Probably because they look like they had something resembling effort put in. Watching the video in the OP, this just looks like a pile of OBLIGE maps with random stuff from ZDoom gameplay mods arbitrarily plonked in without any changes or adjustments.

[Kontra Kommando]

9 hours ago, Kinsie said:

 

Probably because they look like they had something resembling effort put in. Watching the video in the OP, this just looks like a pile of OBLIGE maps with random stuff from ZDoom gameplay mods arbitrarily plonked in without any changes or adjustments.

Most of the stuff is my original content.

 

Honestly, I think the enemy balancing is making things seem chaotic. If I where to less the amount, I might make it less chaotic.

 

Frankly, I enjoy the chaotic feel. But it most people dislike that, I could lower it.

 

Also, the sound effects. I have to admit, I laughed at tinnitus. I could remove them all together, if they are that horrible. I think they're funny. but I can see how they may be puerile, and annoying after a while.

 

 

I could make certain enemies join together, to have less chaos. Like the Terminators, and the Droids could be on the same side. Plus it would add depth to the story.

 

I could also have more of one faction present, and have the others be more novel. I could reduce the amount of predators and praetorian xenomorphs. As well as  take out the Arachnotron so it stops spawning in goofy places.

 

18 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

 

It is. Confirmed by 40oz, much to the surprise of almost everyone on DB.

 

You're right about the lack of a release thread, but the wad is still undergoing bugtesting

 

 

There is indeed some more work being done to get out the kinks.

 

I've been seeing some comments being made about the content. most of it is from my original work, here are the full credits.

 

 

Wait, so I am supposed to make a release thread on DW to officially announce a DBP?

 

Also, I was just planning on hosting it on moddb, is it a must that I upload it to other platforms?

 

I also think a lot of the regulars DBP people are pissed off that I kind of acted unilaterally without following any of the rules, I am aloof to. Honestly, I find it extremely fascinating that such a deep system of rules, regulations, and traditions were created around a community I started while I was smoking some weed one day randomly in 2015. Now people are worried I'm going to ruin it (lol!) It is like a reverse Frankenstein story. The monster is worried about being destroyed by the creator.

 

I will make the changes to the balancing I stated earlier, and include some hotfixes once they come in.

[Kontra Kommando]

9 hours ago, Kontra Kommando said:

Most of the stuff is my original content.

 

Honestly, I think the enemy balancing is making things seem chaotic. If I where to less the amount, I might make it less chaotic.

 

Frankly, I enjoy the chaotic feel. But it most people dislike that, I could lower it.

 

Also, the sound effects. I have to admit, I laughed at tinnitus. I could remove them all together, if they are that horrible. I think they're funny. but I can see how they may be puerile, and annoying after a while.

 

 

I could make certain enemies join together, to have less chaos. Like the Terminators, and the Droids could be on the same side. Plus it would add depth to the story.

 

I could also have more of one faction present, and have the others be more novel. I could reduce the amount of predators and praetorian xenomorphs. As well as  take out the Arachnotron so it stops spawning in goofy places.

 

 

There is indeed some more work being done to get out the kinks.

 

I've been seeing some comments being made about the content. most of it is from my original work, here are the full credits.

 

 

Wait, so I am supposed to make a release thread on DW to officially announce a DBP?

 

Also, I was just planning on hosting it on moddb, is it a must that I upload it to other platforms?

 

I also think a lot of the regulars DBP people are pissed off that I kind of acted unilaterally without following any of the rules, I am aloof to. Honestly, I find it extremely fascinating that such a deep system of rules, regulations, and traditions were created around a community I started while I was smoking some weed one day randomly in 2015. Now people are worried I'm going to ruin it (lol!) It is like a reverse Frankenstein story. The monster is worried about being destroyed by the creator.

 

I will make the changes to the balancing I stated earlier, and include some hotfixes once they come in.

What's even funnier is that I think I hate Doomer.Boards.net even more than DW now. lol

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Kontra Kommando

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

The wad itself, as I said on DB, doesn't fit the DBP style at all. It's also a mess. However, there was obviously some time and effort spent on it. It seems like you had fun making it, judging by your enthusiasm. The problem is that 40oz apparently gave the OK on this being an official DBP. It doesn't follow the limit-removing formula that has become standard for the series. If this was separate from the series, people wouldn't be reacting this way. It's 40oz's indecipherable logic and insufferable attitude toward his members, with him completely ignoring community input and suggestions, that led to this. It's not your fault for being aloof to the rules, it's 40oz's fault for being a poor project leader. Also, the crazy shitposts you made on DB made this seem like it actually was a shitpost jokewad.

[Kontra Kommando]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

The wad itself, as I said on DB, doesn't fit the DBP style at all. It's also a mess. However, there was obviously some time and effort spent on it. It seems like you had fun making it, judging by your enthusiasm. The problem is that 40oz apparently gave the OK on this being an official DBP. It doesn't follow the limit-removing formula that has become standard for the series. If this was separate from the series, people wouldn't be reacting this way. It's 40oz's indecipherable logic and insufferable attitude toward his members, with him completely ignoring community input and suggestions, that led to this.

I was actually cool with it being a side-quest. But then I insisted it be an official entry to intentionally piss off the mappers who were hung up on calling it a joke wad, mostly Joe. But yeah, I did have fun with it, it took a lot of time (relatively speaking, I have little free time, but I used it for that.) and I genuinely think it is a fun mod. I liked play testing it, it was crazy and chaotic. I liked mods like Grezzo Duo, which I saw it compared to in the youtube comments.

[Kontra Kommando]

You know for a joke wad, Grezzo 2 has a legit Wikipedia page. Not something I see for many "serious" mods.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grezzo_2

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Just now, Kontra Kommando said:

I was actually cool with it being a side-quest. But then I insisted it be an official entry to intentionally piss off the mappers who were hung up on calling it a joke wad, mostly Joe. But yeah, I did have fun with it, it took a lot of time (relatively speaking, I have little free time, but I used it for that.) and I genuinely think it is a fun mod. I liked play testing it, it was crazy and chaotic. I liked mods like Grezzo Duo, which I saw it compared to in the youtube comments.

I guess then it's a case of community relations spilling over into the series itself. Personally, it doesn't really make much of a difference to me because I'll still check out the other wads in the series if they're what I normally expect to get out of them. I think it would have been a good idea, like you said, to have it as a side quest. Actually, I think any wad that doesn't follow the limit-removing formula would be better classified as a side quest. I don't expect every project to be excellent, great, or even good. Shit happens, for a multitude of reasons, all the time. But they should at least follow the series standard in terms of compatibility, since DBP is a series after all. Since this one doesn't, it's going to turn off and confuse more casual fans.

 

And presentation can make or break a project. I don't really know you too well, I only know of you, so when I was reading the posts you made on DB, I did think it was intentionally made as a jokewad. I'm pretty sure you were just kidding, but not everyone sees it that way evidently. I'm not saying you shouldn't joke with your fellow members, but when most of the project's hype thread is a joke, it's easy to assume the project is a joke too.

 

Anyway, I hope that helps in some way, and hopefully I'm not coming across as unfair. On DB, it's next to impossible for anyone to provide input because they get shut down by other members (the same ones, every time) or by 40oz himself. It's a management issue. I'm glad you are still working on the project though, it shows you are dedicated to it despite the reception. Having a good time mapping is most important.

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

This WAD has my nomination for the Drama Bait award.

[Kontra Kommando]

40oz has been very accommodating, so I can't complain. I also think he did a better job at being an admin, than me.

 

Frankly, I think the real issue is the lack of time I have to work on it, due to the project constraint, but also my personal time constraint. I think if I had an open ended timeframe like with ALIENS: The Ultimate Doom, it would have turned out a lot better.

 

I think it is shitty that Graf Zahl belittles my mod, when it comes from a zdoom mod that was highly successful, and well received by the public. I appreciate the work he did developing the source port. But he should also appreciate the people who make stuff out of it, in turn helping to promote his own work. Whatever, I'm a "bad guy" around here, so I guess that counts for zero.

[Gibbon]

1 minute ago, Kontra Kommando said:

I think it is shitty that Graf Zahl belittles my mod, when it comes from a zdoom mod that was highly successful, and well received by the public. I appreciate the work he did developing the source port. But he should also appreciate the people who make stuff out of it, in turn helping to promote his own work. Whatever, I'm a "bad guy" around here, so I guess that counts for zero.

 

Graf was stating his fair opinion, something he is 100% entitled to do, he should also be respected for putting in close to 20 years on GZDoom.  Regardless of how you feel about your mod, that doesn't mean everyone should be bowing down to you 'just because'.  Respect is earned, not given.

 

The doom community would be nothing without developers to make source ports to begin with.

[Kontra Kommando]

3 hours ago, Gibbon said:

 

Graf was stating his fair opinion, something he is 100% entitled to do, he should also be respected for putting in close to 20 years on GZDoom.  Regardless of how you feel about your mod, that doesn't mean everyone should be bowing down to you 'just because'.  Respect is earned, not given.

 

The doom community would be nothing without developers to make source ports to begin with.

Okay, but nothing I said violates respect.

 

But also,

 

I think it is unfair hyperbole to compare this:

 

WTF is this? One edited fist sprite, compared to the probably thousands of custom sprites I created? I cannot take that comparison seriously.

 

 

To this:

 

 

[Graf Zahl]

Well,  you can say the second one looks even messier! :P

 

But that's not what I was saying when making the comparison.

Obviosuly they are very different in gameplay style, but their unifying property in my opinion is that the gameplay feels very unrefined, and consistently missing the "fun" aspect by a huge margin.

 

Another unifying thing I notice is how criticism is being handled. If you just brush off all the negative feedback you won't get a decent end product. I see that you are very protective of something you seemed to think was a good idea. But it should be abundantly clear by now that the community at large strongly disagrees with that. And if the negative feedback is as strong as on display here you should seriously consider that something is wrong.

 

 

[Kontra Kommando]

4 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Well,  you can say the second one looks even messier! :P

 

But that's not what I was saying when making the comparison.

Obviosuly they are very different in gameplay style, but their unifying property in my opinion is that the gameplay feels very unrefined, and consistently missing the "fun" aspect by a huge margin.

 

Another unifying thing I notice is how criticism is being handled. If you just brush off all the negative feedback you won't get a decent end product. I see that you are very protective of something you seemed to think was a good idea. But it should be abundantly clear by now that the community at large strongly disagrees with that. And if the negative feedback is as strong as on display here you should seriously consider that something is wrong.

 

 

 

I actually have been making considerations according to the feedback. For example, removing the soundbites, and reducing the number of enemies.

 

At this point, doing any physical changes to the level geometry is too far gone. This is something that could have benefited from more time. But also more participation.

[Pistoolkip]

1 hour ago, Kontra Kommando said:

 

I actually have been making considerations according to the feedback. For example, removing the soundbites, and reducing the number of enemies.

 

At this point, doing any physical changes to the level geometry is too far gone. This is something that could have benefited from more time. But also more participation.

 

Let it go.

 

If people are giving constructive feedback, use it to make your wad better.

 

If people call this a joke wad or just shit, let it go. This wad isn't for everyone, and you're not going to convince them otherwise, no matter how much work you have put into this.

 

Focus your energy on making improvements, and on people you care about. 

[Liberation]

So the original thread was helled/locked as it ended up a train wreck.

 

Then this thread was started, and is no better. No one asked for this thread and we certainly didn't ask for Doomer boards drama to spill over onto here!

 

The monthly DBP's people really enjoy and that's cool. This however is just drama and is not welcome here.

You have your own forum folks and this conversation would be better suited there.