Are limit-removing and Boom-compatible maps able to be played on GZDoom?

[aGuyNamedKeith]

I know the difference between limit removing and Boom compatible maps and port, but because the GZDoom source port contains many of the features that those kinds of maps and ports could utilize, would that mean that GZDoom is able to play almost all maps that are made for limit-removing and Boom-compatible ports? Just asking.

[Lucius Wooding]

Yes, ZDoom based ports are Boom compatible, as well as Heretic, Hexen, Chex Quest, etc. ZDoom also has some significant features of its own but it will essentially play anything except if it uses specialized features like Eternity Engine and stuff. ZDoom should also cover MBF which is an adaptation of Boom with some extra features.

 

GZDoom is pretty much plug and play for 99% of wads, the only caveat is that some settings like infinite height monsters and freelook and other compatibility stuff may not translate to the same experience across ports. It's also not demo compatible with other ports in general.

[Ar_e_en]

Yes! GZDoom can play limit-removing and Boom maps just fine, I would say that GZDoom can run those maps with 99% accuracy compared to limit-removing and Boom friendly ports. The remaining 1% being a few minor inconsistencies that GZDoom creates due to its extra features (the ability to jump can break a few sequences, some movement tricks may be inaccurate, things are not infinitely tall, etc.), but you can just change some compatibility setting in the options menu to alleviate those problems.

[aGuyNamedKeith]

46 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

Yes, ZDoom based ports are Boom compatible, as well as Heretic, Hexen, Chex Quest, etc. ZDoom also has some significant features of its own but it will essentially play anything except if it uses specialized features like Eternity Engine and stuff. ZDoom should also cover MBF which is an adaptation of Boom with some extra features.

 

GZDoom is pretty much plug and play for 99% of wads, the only caveat is that some settings like infinite height monsters and freelook and other compatibility stuff may not translate to the same experience across ports. It's also not demo compatible with other ports in general.

 

44 minutes ago, Ar_e_en said:

Yes! GZDoom can play limit-removing and Boom maps just fine, I would say that GZDoom can run those maps with 99% accuracy compared to limit-removing and Boom friendly ports. The remaining 1% being a few minor inconsistencies that GZDoom creates due to its extra features (the ability to jump can break a few sequences, some movement tricks may be inaccurate, things are not infinitely tall, etc.), but you can just change some compatibility setting in the options menu to alleviate those problems.

Thanks, both of you. I shall reward your gratitude with a gift: my favorite meme I could find from glancing at the image results for "cursed memes" on google.

[Jiggahertz]

"Are limit-removing and Boom-compatible maps able to be played on GZDoom?"

Yes

[EPICALLL]

It depends on what's in the map.
I'm not sure what exactly it depends on, but I know there is something to be weary about.
You'll know something's off when you see it, however.

I.E. something being made with the vanilla limitations of BOOM in mind

[Fluuschoen]

On 10/29/2022 at 2:12 PM, Ar_e_en said:

Yes! GZDoom can play limit-removing and Boom maps just fine, I would say that GZDoom can run those maps with 99% accuracy compared to limit-removing and Boom friendly ports. The remaining 1% being a few minor inconsistencies that GZDoom creates due to its extra features (the ability to jump can break a few sequences, some movement tricks may be inaccurate, things are not infinitely tall, etc.), but you can just change some compatibility setting in the options menu to alleviate those problems.

 

I wouldn't call the different physics, alternative RNG table and monster behavior (and many other differences) a 1 % tho. It's pretty far from accurate, even in strict mode tbh.

[SMG_Man]

One thing that you have to keep an eye out for is that some limit-removing maps will make use of (unintended, but present nevertheless) features available in the original engine, and unless the map set you're playing is one specifically whitelisted by (G)ZDoom, those effects will not work. For example, if you're playing a lesser-known map that uses ghost monsters in any capacity, they will not function, whereas if you were to load up Plutonia 2's MAP32, they would work as intended there. Some things like this arbitrarily do not have compatibility flags that you can set in (G)ZDoom, so in order to experience the map as intended you would need to use a different port.

[Doomy__Doom]

54 minutes ago, SMG_Man said:

Some things like this arbitrarily do not have compatibility flags that you can set in (G)ZDoom

"compat_vileghosts" most certainly exists in console and is automatically set to true on Doom(strict). It's a fair argument that you can't always know that you want it to be set ahead of time though.

Another example would be that relatively recent case where a map (don't remember the name) had a garbage bit on a linedef that became MBF21 player-blocking, as the default state of MBF21 is to enable features, the compat flag is there to disable them.

 

Mandatory glides would be something that you can't compat away afaik. I guess there is also the conveyor belt physics thing, I haven't played but recall seeing a couple mapsets that mention their vodoo setups don't function on zdoom.

[Kinsie]

I believe a comp flag for re-enabling the ghost monster bug was a fairly recent addition. Previously there was a real gross hack to only enable it on certain specific old maps that demanded it.

 

This also means vanilla mapsets that include a ZMAPINFO lump can re-enable that bug for maps for are built around it.

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Another example would be that relatively recent case where a map (don't remember the name) had a garbage bit on a linedef that became MBF21 player-blocking, as the default state of MBF21 is to enable features, the compat flag is there to disable them.

That would be MAP04 (Sewers) from Realm of Chaos. There's probably other levels out there with the same problem, since I'd guess it's caused by the buggy editor they had available on the Mac back then.

[aGuyNamedKeith]

On 10/31/2022 at 7:26 AM, SMG_Man said:

One thing that you have to keep an eye out for is that some limit-removing maps will make use of (unintended, but present nevertheless) features available in the original engine, and unless the map set you're playing is one specifically whitelisted by (G)ZDoom, those effects will not work. For example, if you're playing a lesser-known map that uses ghost monsters in any capacity, they will not function, whereas if you were to load up Plutonia 2's MAP32, they would work as intended there. Some things like this arbitrarily do not have compatibility flags that you can set in (G)ZDoom, so in order to experience the map as intended you would need to use a different port.

Oh. Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep that in mind.

 

22 hours ago, Kinsie said:

I believe a comp flag for re-enabling the ghost monster bug was a fairly recent addition. Previously there was a real gross hack to only enable it on certain specific old maps that demanded it.

 

This also means vanilla mapsets that include a ZMAPINFO lump can re-enable that bug for maps for are built around it.

I was never expecting the one and only Kinsie to reply on this. Though, the fact that the comp flag is a recent addition... feels like it should have been added to (G)ZDoom long ago. Weird it took that long.

[Herr Dethnout]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:58 AM, aGuyNamedKeith said:

I know the difference between limit removing and Boom compatible maps and port, but because the GZDoom source port contains many of the features that those kinds of maps and ports could utilize, would that mean that GZDoom is able to play almost all maps that are made for limit-removing and Boom-compatible ports? Just asking.

Well, limit-removing is just a vanilla map without the original engine limits, so yeah is 10.000% sure that it can.
It can run Boom too, but I recommend you to play both maps on a Boom or limit-removing focused port (like Doom Retro, Crispy Doom, or PrBoom+/DSDA Doom, because GZDoom based ports tends to handle the things way too different than original Doom even with strict mode or compatibility options on, and since is focused on using Truecolor Hardware rendering it can break some maps that use software rendering or vanilla engine tricks (Like for example the Tutti-Frutti texture glitch or HOM).

[Dark Pulse]

57 minutes ago, aGuyNamedKeith said:

I was never expecting the one and only Kinsie to reply on this. Though, the fact that the comp flag is a recent addition... feels like it should have been added to (G)ZDoom long ago. Weird it took that long.

GZDoom maintains an internal compatability list that will do things like automatically fix map bugs and enable specific features for maps that need them and are well-known.

 

Ghost monsters were one of these things, so maps that were well-known and used them had the flag automatically set.

 

It's just that recently they decided to make that a mapper-controlled thing, and admittedly for some time there was some discontent, as it was otherwise a unilateral fix - mappers could not enable it before it was allowed to be mapper-sectable.

[Graf Zahl]

22 hours ago, Andromeda said:

That would be MAP04 (Sewers) from Realm of Chaos. There's probably other levels out there with the same problem, since I'd guess it's caused by the buggy editor they had available on the Mac back then.

 

Correct. The problem was severe enough that I added a compatibility option for it.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

 

It's just that recently they decided to make that a mapper-controlled thing, and admittedly for some time there was some discontent, as it was otherwise a unilateral fix - mappers could not enable it before it was allowed to be mapper-sectable. 

 

The problems with this stem from an ancient decision in ZDoom to replace gibbed corpses with a new actor. With this setup it was not possible to revive the ghosts. This design mistake was recently undone for non-players.

 

[Ravendesk]

It may seem like it does at the first glance, but actually the answer is No. A lot of Boom features are not supported correctly by GZDoom even with "Boom strict" compatibility.

 

Most notorious is probably the difference in the way GZDoom handles Boom scrollers. The speed of very slow, very fast and not properly aligned scrollers is wrong in GZ. The further you go from "normal" speeds, the worse it becomes.

 

But that's just the beginning of the list. Friction floors behave differently, fake floors behave differently. Reverse control floors don't work. Boom instakill floors work incorrectly. The amount of control you have on scrolling floors is also different. cl2 mikoportals don't work.

 

And I didn't even mention the physics difference, that hugely affects some gimmicky maps.

 

There are hacks for some of them that wad creators carefully add in their maps so people who play everything in GZ become a little happier, but they are often imperfect and they don't fix all the issues.

 

If you are going to play any non-conventional and creative wad (Wormwood 3, Poogers among others) I strongly recommend strictly following the author's recommendation for the intended port. Otherwise you might be missing out on the fun things map author made for Boom simply because they don't work in GZ.

[DeletedAccount]

In my opinion, limit removing wads and Boom compatible wads should be tested with their respective source port.

 

This is because, GZDoom doesn't emulate very accurately to Boom and Limit Removing, and makes certain gameplay changes like GZDoom supports jumping, disabling infinitely tall enemies and blocking decorations, which is even allowed in some Boom ports like PrBoom+, but it mapping errors menu, so, for Boom and Limit Removing you should play the map with regular ports to emulate accurate behaviour.

 

If you keep mapping in Boom or Vanilla and test it with ZDoom and its based ports, then it will use some demo incompatible features just like I mentioned above, and we won't be able to record demos coz i am sure that 99% of the GZDoom users will play maps with Default compatiblity not any strict compatibility.

 

And yeah, one more thing, GZDoom doesn't support ghost monsters at all, even in its Doom(Strict) compatibilty settings..

 

If you are intentionally making the use of ghost monster bug, like e.g HR map 26 etc, I recommend go for ports like Crispy, PrBoom plus, Woof!, DSDA etc.

 

So, my answer for **Are limit-removing and Boom-compatible maps able to be played on GZDoom?** is NO.

 

@Ravendesk's answer is more accurate than me ;)

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Heck Yeah : 🤟🤟🤟

[Ar_e_en]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:30 AM, Fluuschoen said:

 

I wouldn't call the different physics, alternative RNG table and monster behavior (and many other differences) a 1 % tho. It's pretty far from accurate, even in strict mode tbh.

I mean - if you're worried about demo recording, then yes - the "1%" would be a big deal, but since GZDoom doesn't really have demos - then the inaccuracies really would feel like a "1%" difference between ports.

[Trar]

My go-to sourceport for maps that have Boom compatibility issues in GZDoom would probably be Woof! since it's a continuation of (the Windows port of) Marine's Best Friend, which itself was a continuation of the original Boom. DSDA-Doom is also another good modern Boom-compatible sourceport but I'm still bothered by its janky chainsaw animations; it's up to personal preference really.

 

Generally speaking though I usually throw stuff that doesn't obviously need GZDoom into LZDoom (or Crispy Doom) first and use something else if I run into problems.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Trar

[Anthalion]

Probably not a place for this, but anyone knows how to make Partial Invisibility to behave in GzDoom, like, as it supposed to? I put compatibility mode to strict and yet enemies are always un alerted to me unless I attack.

 

That is not how classic Doom works.

Thank you.

[Shepardus]

39 minutes ago, Anthalion said:

Probably not a place for this, but anyone knows how to make Partial Invisibility to behave in GzDoom, like, as it supposed to? I put compatibility mode to strict and yet enemies are always un alerted to me unless I attack.

 

That is not how classic Doom works.

Thank you.

It should be set correctly when you use one of the "strict" presets, but it's "Monsters see invisible players" under the "Actor Behavior" part of compatibility options.