So, GZDoom has replaced its sector light options...

[Jakub Majewski]

A few days ago, the 4.11 update for GZDoom had dropped, so I quickly downloaded it and put it in my Doom folder. What I noticed soon enough is that instead of being able to select about 8 options when it comes to sector light mode, and they looked quite different from one another; now I can select only 3. But before I delve into the latter, let me shed some light on the former.

 

It's no surprise that this many options for lightning confused GZDoom users, so it's no surprise that the GZDoom team decided to simplify that selection. For the longest time, I had not idea what each one of them was for, but thankfully, one random post in a Doom World thread had the answer for me: 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2669729

 

Here's the gist of the message, containing the info we're interested in:

Spoiler

Legacy is named after Doom Legacy. Specifically Doom Legacy v1.42's OpenGL renderer to be precise. IIRC it was added to play Phobia on GZDoom. It is absolutely not, in any way, shape, or form, intended as a general-purpose "looks like Doom" lighting mode.

 

The lighting modes intended to look like Doom are, in order of increasing accuracy, are "Dark" (approximating the Doom light dropoff), "Doom" (same + shader-based bright aura around the player), "software" (shader-based recreation of the ZDoom software renderer's look), and "vanilla" (shader-based recreation of vanilla Doom's renderer look). "Software" and "vanilla" are very very close to each other with only minor differences and are pretty much exact. "Doom" and "Dark" are much less precise and accurate since they were basically eyeballed until they looked right.

 

"Build" is the software/vanilla approach applied to the Build renderer, and exists in GZDoom mostly because then the code can be shared between both programs and that's less maintenance work.

 

"Standard" and "bright" are not trying to replicate anything in particular. Standard is what GZDoom started with, before any other lighting mode was added. Bright is a brighter version of standard.

 

A rather clear explanation. At the time I saw that post, the ZDoom wiki lacked this information(or at least I couldn't find it), so I felt disappointed that this isn't better spread.

 

Nonetheless, the gist of how you should set up your options in GZDoom when it comes to this depends on what kind of WADs you're going to be playing. If it's a vanilla or vanilla-esque WAD, you're likely bound to pick Software or Vanilla. For a typical ZDoom level, you'd likely pick Standard. If you want something horrorish or moody, you'd go for Dark. If you want something built for Doom Legacy, you'd likely use the Legacy option. But most importantly, you would pick whatever the map author desired you to pick. Important note, however, is that MAPINFO allows you to force one of the above modes to be used in a map, eliminating any confusion for users.

 

This system can be seen as unnecessarily complex, but I, as perhaps some others, got somewhat used to it. But now, as of version 4.11, this got simplified.

 

Now we have three options:

• Software
• Vanilla
• Classic(Faster)

 

Now, the reason I am making this thread is that I am not sure which lightning mode is suited for which use case. I suppose that Vanilla is equivalent to old Vanilla/Software and is to be used with vanilla style WADs, or perhaps trying to emulate an oldschool look. Now, Software seems to look like what Standard used to look like before the update, but the name "Software" implies that something here is software rendered, and that's not what fancy-looking GZDoom mods(usually hardware/OpenGL/hardware rendered) are meant to be used for. As for Classic(Faster), it sounds like it's a measure to render the levels in an uglier way just so they can run on less powerful machines, rather than a specific use case like any of the old modes.

 

Now, I get it, perhaps I am meant to see this as "use Vanilla if you're oldschool, use Classic if your PC is weak, and use Software for everything else(aka 90% of use cases)". However, I presume that a lot of old PWADs were meant to be used with other modes like Dark, as opposed to what we're stuck with now. As mentioned previously, MAPINFO allows the map author to force a certain light mode onto the user when playing a map. With that in mind, what will happen if I, with only access to those 3 new light modes, play a PWAD that wants to force me to use Dark, a light mode that no longer exists? Will the map still be darker as the author intended? Will it be too damn bright, ruining the experience? Or worse, will it freaking crash?

 

Perhaps this has been brought up in a random post in an obscure thread, or on a different forum, or on some Discord server, but I wanted to make this thread, since I believe that more people should be aware of what is going on. Threads like that are easier to be found by search engines as well, so if anyone else wonders about it, they will stumble here too. Answers to topics like that shouldn't be exclusively found in remote and obscure places; I believe that most GZDoom users want to make the most out of their GZDoom experience, and in order to do that, they should know what their options do. They should also know better on how to make sure the players can experience the map the same way that the map makers did.

 

Without further ado, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Shepardus]

Software and Vanilla are the same as they were before. I remember reading that Software is meant to replicate the ZDoom software renderer's lighting while Vanilla is meant to replicate, well, vanilla, but I'm not sure what the difference between the two is.

 

Classic is the same as "Doom" from previous versions, and is mainly intended for computers that can't handle the shaders that the other two light modes rely on.

 

If you really need one of the other light modes you can enable it temporarily with the gl_maplightmode console variable, but it won't be saved to the config. For map authors, setting light mode through MAPINFO will also still work, though there is some restriction on setting it to software/vanilla due to the need for people to be able to turn it to Classic for performance.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Shepardus

[Franciscovr]

12 hours ago, Shepardus said:

Software and Vanilla are the same as they were before. I remember reading that Software is meant to replicate the ZDoom software renderer's lighting while Vanilla is meant to replicate, well, vanilla, but I'm not sure what the difference between the two is.

 

Classic is the same as "Doom" from previous versions, and is mainly intended for computers that can't handle the shaders that the other two light modes rely on.

 

If you really need one of the other light modes you can enable it temporarily with the gl_maplightmode console variable, but it won't be saved to the config. For map authors, setting light mode through MAPINFO will also still work, though there is some restriction on setting it to software/vanilla due to the need for people to be able to turn it to Classic for performance.

Thank you, I was desperate to find a solution. This new version of GZDOOM has disappointed me because I used the Bright mode, and they removed it.

[Franciscovr]

13 hours ago, Jakub Majewski said:

A few days ago, the 4.11 update for GZDoom had dropped, so I quickly downloaded it and put it in my Doom folder. What I noticed soon enough is that instead of being able to select about 8 options when it comes to sector light mode, and they looked quite different from one another; now I can select only 3. But before I delve into the latter, let me shed some light on the former.

 

It's no surprise that this many options for lightning confused GZDoom users, so it's no surprise that the GZDoom team decided to simplify that selection. For the longest time, I had not idea what each one of them was for, but thankfully, one random post in a Doom World thread had the answer for me: 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2669729

 

Here's the gist of the message, containing the info we're interested in:

  Reveal hidden contents

Legacy is named after Doom Legacy. Specifically Doom Legacy v1.42's OpenGL renderer to be precise. IIRC it was added to play Phobia on GZDoom. It is absolutely not, in any way, shape, or form, intended as a general-purpose "looks like Doom" lighting mode.

 

The lighting modes intended to look like Doom are, in order of increasing accuracy, are "Dark" (approximating the Doom light dropoff), "Doom" (same + shader-based bright aura around the player), "software" (shader-based recreation of the ZDoom software renderer's look), and "vanilla" (shader-based recreation of vanilla Doom's renderer look). "Software" and "vanilla" are very very close to each other with only minor differences and are pretty much exact. "Doom" and "Dark" are much less precise and accurate since they were basically eyeballed until they looked right.

 

"Build" is the software/vanilla approach applied to the Build renderer, and exists in GZDoom mostly because then the code can be shared between both programs and that's less maintenance work.

 

"Standard" and "bright" are not trying to replicate anything in particular. Standard is what GZDoom started with, before any other lighting mode was added. Bright is a brighter version of standard.

 

A rather clear explanation. At the time I saw that post, the ZDoom wiki lacked this information(or at least I couldn't find it), so I felt disappointed that this isn't better spread.

 

Nonetheless, the gist of how you should set up your options in GZDoom when it comes to this depends on what kind of WADs you're going to be playing. If it's a vanilla or vanilla-esque WAD, you're likely bound to pick Software or Vanilla. For a typical ZDoom level, you'd likely pick Standard. If you want something horrorish or moody, you'd go for Dark. If you want something built for Doom Legacy, you'd likely use the Legacy option. But most importantly, you would pick whatever the map author desired you to pick. Important note, however, is that MAPINFO allows you to force one of the above modes to be used in a map, eliminating any confusion for users.

 

This system can be seen as unnecessarily complex, but I, as perhaps some others, got somewhat used to it. But now, as of version 4.11, this got simplified.

 

Now we have three options:

• Software
• Vanilla
• Classic(Faster)

 

Now, the reason I am making this thread is that I am not sure which lightning mode is suited for which use case. I suppose that Vanilla is equivalent to old Vanilla/Software and is to be used with vanilla style WADs, or perhaps trying to emulate an oldschool look. Now, Software seems to look like what Standard used to look like before the update, but the name "Software" implies that something here is software rendered, and that's not what fancy-looking GZDoom mods(usually hardware/OpenGL/hardware rendered) are meant to be used for. As for Classic(Faster), it sounds like it's a measure to render the levels in an uglier way just so they can run on less powerful machines, rather than a specific use case like any of the old modes.

 

Now, I get it, perhaps I am meant to see this as "use Vanilla if you're oldschool, use Classic if your PC is weak, and use Software for everything else(aka 90% of use cases)". However, I presume that a lot of old PWADs were meant to be used with other modes like Dark, as opposed to what we're stuck with now. As mentioned previously, MAPINFO allows the map author to force a certain light mode onto the user when playing a map. With that in mind, what will happen if I, with only access to those 3 new light modes, play a PWAD that wants to force me to use Dark, a light mode that no longer exists? Will the map still be darker as the author intended? Will it be too damn bright, ruining the experience? Or worse, will it freaking crash?

 

Perhaps this has been brought up in a random post in an obscure thread, or on a different forum, or on some Discord server, but I wanted to make this thread, since I believe that more people should be aware of what is going on. Threads like that are easier to be found by search engines as well, so if anyone else wonders about it, they will stumble here too. Answers to topics like that shouldn't be exclusively found in remote and obscure places; I believe that most GZDoom users want to make the most out of their GZDoom experience, and in order to do that, they should know what their options do. They should also know better on how to make sure the players can experience the map the same way that the map makers did.

 

Without further ado, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

If the map is too dark, add the command +gl_maplightmode to the .bat file and choose either 1 or 4. For example:
 

@echo off
start gzdoom.exe +gl_maplightmode 4
 

This way, the game will ALWAYS start with the pre-set gl_maplightmode command.

My After-DOOM gets too dark, so I need to use this command; mine looks like this:

@echo off
start gzdoom.exe +gl_maplightmode 1 -iwad DOOM2.wad -file After-Doom-v4.6.1.pk3 -file marifx_m-master.zip 

[Graf Zahl]

15 hours ago, Shepardus said:

Software and Vanilla are the same as they were before. I remember reading that Software is meant to replicate the ZDoom software renderer's lighting while Vanilla is meant to replicate, well, vanilla, but I'm not sure what the difference between the two is.

 

 

The difference is that vanilla uses different lighting ramps for walls and flats, at one point this got changed in ZDoom, so now both options are available. TBH, with true color loghting the vanilla option looks somewhat broken, though - which is one more reason not to allow maps to enforce it. People may just not like it at all.

 

3 hours ago, Franciscovr said:

If the map is too dark, add the command +gl_maplightmode to the .bat file and choose either 1 or 4. For example:
 

@echo off
start gzdoom.exe +gl_maplightmode 4
 

This way, the game will ALWAYS start with the pre-set gl_maplightmode command.

My After-DOOM gets too dark, so I need to use this command; mine looks like this:

@echo off
start gzdoom.exe +gl_maplightmode 1 -iwad DOOM2.wad -file After-Doom-v4.6.1.pk3 -file marifx_m-master.zip 

 

If it's your own map that's too dark, use MAPINFO to set the proper mode.

If, however, everything is too dark you should recalibrate your monitor or adjust with the color correction options in the menu, not with the light mode setting. That's not what it is there for.

[ChopBlock223]

I'd rather adjust lighting settings inside any given game, to get the results relevant for that, rather than adjusting my screen across the board.

 

Don't ditch dark mode lighting, it has its appeal. Maybe you could add a small tool tip for each lighting option to better make clear what they are?

[Professor Hastig]

10 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

I'd rather adjust lighting settings inside any given game, to get the results relevant for that, rather than adjusting my screen across the board.

 

 

That's what the color correction options in the menu are there for, that's the items called "Gamma correction", "Brightness", "Contrast" and "Saturation" - not the light modes which totally alter the lighting model of the engine. Normally increasing gamma and saturation should do the trick.

[Lila Feuer]

Dark basically removed player self lighting which wasn't good in pitch black areas unless you relied on other sources of (dynamic) light, which was fine, excellent even for more horror-y mods and a valid preference if someone didn't like the radial effect when getting close to walls, so what's the deal with removing it?

[LuciferSam86]

11 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Dark basically removed player self lighting which wasn't good in pitch black areas unless you relied on other sources of (dynamic) light, which was fine, excellent even for more horror-y mods and a valid preference if someone didn't like the radial effect when getting close to walls, so what's the deal with removing it?

AFAIK you can enable it via console for testing or via MAPINFO. Since dark it is for special cases ( like a mod ) it makes sense imho. 

[Xaser]

For everyone who was using any option other than Software or Vanilla to play a mod that wasn't specifically designed for hardware rendering, you were playing a highly modded version of the game. The other modes looked wildly different to the software renderer, and non-GL-targeting mods and mapsets (e.g. nearly every single vanilla, limrem or boom map) were meant to look like software mode by definition.

 

Folks that know what they're doing and want to pick a different light mode on purpose (i.e. mod their game) can still do so. This change makes it harder for new users to accidentally stumble into the "wrong" setting, which isn't a hypothetical problem -- I just had a convo about this on someone on discord literally yesterday, 'cause some gzdoom screenshots of their vanilla project had the wrong light mode set and were doing the map's lighting a disservice. :P

 

For older GL maps that are designed to run in a specific lightmode but don't set it in their mapinfo, that sounds like a good candidate for using gzdoom's automagic map compatibility stuffs to apply the option. Would need to be reported and fixed one by one, though, so specific examples would work best.

 

Anyhow tl;dr: this fixes up a major longstanding newbie-trap with the port while still leaving the DIY option open, which is how it ought to be.

[ChopBlock223]

3 hours ago, Xaser said:

Folks that know what they're doing and want to pick a different light mode on purpose (i.e. mod their game) can still do so.

Yet the fuzzy linear filter is on by default, which is a thousand times worse for visuals, so that argument is obnoxiously moot. Nevermind jumping, crouching, and freelook being on by default, along with full monster/player collision, and those all directly affect gameplay before you add any kind of mod on top. I'm not exactly using GzDoom for a pure Vanilla experience "Just like the devs/modders intended (TM)."

 

Again, just rename them or attach a tool-tip to make things more clear, why hide away a really basic option like this which has been around for absolute ages? Imagine if brightmaps could only be enabled by editing your config manually or using a UMAPINFO or console command, that shit would be annoying.

[Blzut3]

17 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Yet the fuzzy linear filter is on by default, which is a thousand times worse for visuals, so that argument is obnoxiously moot. Nevermind jumping, crouching, and freelook being on by default, along with full monster/player collision, and those all directly affect gameplay before you add any kind of mod on top. I'm not exactly using GzDoom for a pure Vanilla experience "Just like the devs/modders intended (TM)."

So we should take no steps in the right direction just because all of the steps weren't taken at once?

 

17 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Again, just rename them or attach a tool-tip to make things more clear, why hide away a really basic option like this which has been around for absolute ages? Imagine if brightmaps could only be enabled by editing your config manually or using a UMAPINFO or console command, that shit would be annoying.

This being a "basic" option is most definitely your opinion.  This is an option which there were obviously more correct answers and users shouldn't need to care about it.  Having it in the menu also meant that mod authors probably weren't aware they could set it in MAPINFO.  Adding more text to the menus isn't how you make them more approachable given that users hate reading.  On the other hand people that care as much as you seem to will be sufficiently motivated to figure out how use the autoexec functions.

 

Your bright maps comparison falls flat since need to load a mod to get brightmaps in GZDoom.  A mod happens to come with the distribution and there's an easy to toggle cvar to autoload it, but otherwise it's not really any different from if light mode adjustment required MAPINFO.

[Bridgeburner56]

Seems an appropriate time to remind people you can set the sector lightmode via mapinfo, and a lot of maps do this because it is the lightmode designed around (eg Elementalism)

[Lila Feuer]

Alright so MAPINFO it is, for a WIP mod (that technically got released before) I can thankfully take out the sprite shadows because GZDoom comes with them now, but I gotta stamp in a lighting mode it relied upon in the MAPINFO because GZDoom took it out. HEHeheh. Well thanks. /s

Edited October 13, 2023 by Lila Feuer

[Professor Hastig]

6 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Again, just rename them or attach a tool-tip to make things more clear, why hide away a really basic option like this which has been around for absolute ages? Imagine if brightmaps could only be enabled by editing your config manually or using a UMAPINFO or console command, that shit would be annoying.

 

As it always is with streamlining such options, it's 95% or more of the users which are happy with the change that makes their life easier, but there's always this small rest with unusual setups that find out that it wasn't really 'mainstream'. But should that really be a reason to leave design mistakes in forever?

 

 

[RataUnderground]

I am not against the simplified selection of light modes, but the names are somewhat confusing. I understand that they are kept for not alienating old users, but Software, vanilla and classic(faster) sound identical to me (I know what they each are, but let's imagine I'm a newer player or haven't gotten into researching). They seems like all three are inadequate for playing maps intended for GzDoom.
Software sounds like a simulation of the software renderer, so the player who wants all the dynamic lighting effects, truecolor and stuff will think it's not the right one. Vanilla the same, and Classic the same, where is the "enhanced" or "modern" mode, which would be much clearer?

[dpJudas]

I don't think you can describe these modes in a way that makes the uninitiated player understand what the difference is without a huge paragraph in the options menu.

 

That's not the goal either though. This is about making new players see a default that more closely matches the original looks of Doom rather than old poorer approximations.

[RataUnderground]

13 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

I don't think you can describe these modes in a way that makes the uninitiated player understand what the difference is without a huge paragraph in the options menu.

 

That's not the goal either though. This is about making new players see a default that more closely matches the original looks of Doom rather than old poorer approximations.

Interesting, is GzDoom now aiming to establish a default config that more closely approximates the "original" Doom look?

[Lila Feuer]

9 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

Adding more text to the menus isn't how you make them more approachable given that users hate reading.  On the other hand people that care as much as you seem to will be sufficiently motivated to figure out how use the autoexec functions.

Would something like Advanced lighting modes / other lighting modes not suffice for specific and niche things like dark, doom, legacy, whatever? It's not like the menus aren't already bloated (they've already been simplified as it is by default seeing as you need to opt in as almost everything is hidden from a new user). So say if I force my lighting preference on others via my mod's MAPINFO and a user doesn't like it doesn't that just end up inconveniencing them? Can they override my MAPINFO's settings with GZDoom's or are they screwed unless they go prying inside the PK3 which isn't newbie friendly whatsoever?

This notion that newbies will get lost / make ill-formed decisions will always be a problem for people who don't pay attention in the first place. I see Vinny of Vinesauce complain sometimes that a WAD is too dark and he just switches the lighting mode to legacy or something, and he's not exactly the most well-versed Doom player.

This is very much a classic case of "inconvenience the established user who's been using the program longer versus the new person who will always exist in some capacity and proceed to blunder anyway." Bubble wrapping everything for a one size fits some and your mileage will always vary isn't a long-term solution, just a band aid that will proceed to eventually get wet and then fall off.

E: This might be kinda petty but I don't care, if the idea is to make things look more authentic, at least lighting wise, then why is TEXTURE FILTERING defaulted to ON.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Lila Feuer

[Professor Hastig]

23 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

This notion that newbies will get lost / make ill-formed decisions will always be a problem for people who don't pay attention in the first place. I see Vinny of Vinesauce complain sometimes that a WAD is too dark and he just switches the lighting mode to legacy or something, and he's not exactly the most well-versed Doom player.

 

 

At some point one needs to stop adding such options to the menu. Like you said, the menu is already far too bloated and it is hard to find relevant options.

 

25 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

E: This might be kinda petty but I don't care, if the idea is to make things look more authentic lighting wise, then why is TEXTURE FILTERING defaulted to ON.

 

If it was just set to 'on'...

What it is set to is "trilinear", which other hard to understand options. If it was just "on" and "off" it'd already be a lot better.

 

[Dark Pulse]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:38 AM, Professor Hastig said:

If it was just set to 'on'...

What it is set to is "trilinear", which other hard to understand options. If it was just "on" and "off" it'd already be a lot better.

If only there was one way to filter sprites, that would suffice. But there isn't. Bilinear, Trilinear, Nearest...

[roxofbockets]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:40 PM, Jakub Majewski said:

I suppose that Vanilla is equivalent to old Vanilla/Software and is to be used with vanilla style WADs, or perhaps trying to emulate an oldschool look.

 

That's what I used to believe, but 'Vanilla' doesn't look right:

 

Spoiler

DOSBox:

 

LZDoom's OpenGL 'Software' setting:

 

LZDoom's OpenGL 'Vanilla' Setting:

 

 

As shown in the photos above, in Map 10 of Doom 2, if the player stands in the alcove opposite the UAC door that hides the soul sphere, the player should be able to see the door frame as a silver color. This is the case in DOSBox, as well as LZDoom's 'Software' OpenGL setting. The door frame is darkened significantly on the 'Vanilla' setting. The wall to the right, and the alcove to the far left are also greatly darkened on the 'Vanilla' setting.

[LoatharMDPhD]

// So am i the only person who doesn't update things for years?

[Trov]

2 hours ago, roxofbockets said:

 

That's what I used to believe, but 'Vanilla' doesn't look right:

LZDoom is not GZDoom.

 

On 10/13/2023 at 4:54 AM, dpJudas said:

I don't think you can describe these modes in a way that makes the uninitiated player understand what the difference is without a huge paragraph in the options menu.

I'd name them "Vanilla Doom", "ZDoom (Brighter)", "Old GZDoom (No Light Fade)"
Yes there is a tiny amount of light fading going on in the "Doom"/"Classic" mode of course but it's extremely subtle compared to the effect in the other two.

They aren't exact descriptions but tell at least 50% of the story rather than none of it.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Trov

[roxofbockets]

10 minutes ago, Trov said:

LZDoom is not GZDoom.

 

Interesting. How do these same options look in GZDoom?

Edited November 19, 2023 by roxofbockets

[Trov]

Hmm, it does look the same. I remember that "Software" used to have brighter near-light-fading than "Vanilla" & Vanilla Doom's. I wonder if maybe things got changed in more recent updates.

[LexiMax]

This is a most welcome change.

 

10 hours ago, Trov said:

I'd name them "Vanilla Doom", "ZDoom (Brighter)", "Old GZDoom (No Light Fade)"

 

If we're bikeshedding over names, how does this sound?

• Original Doom
• Modern (or "New") GZDoom
• Old GZDoom

Edited November 19, 2023 by LexiMax

[RataUnderground]

49 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

This is a most welcome change.

 

 

If we're bikeshedding over names, how does this sound?

• Original Doom
• Modern (or "New") GZDoom
• Old GZDoom

 I think these are much, much better than the actual ones.

---

I had some time to kill so I made some gifs to compare lightmodes.

Chocolate Doom/DSDA software/DSDA OpenGL/Woof


GzDoom ones

[Kroc]

Unpopular Opinion: Every graphic option should come with comparison screenshots

[LexiMax]

7 minutes ago, Kroc said:

Unpopular Opinion: Every graphic option should come with comparison screenshots

 

I don't think this is an unpopular opinion so far as it is probably a pain in the neck to implement.

 

Counter-strike 2 actually does it like this, with a special "graphics settings" level that renders to the side:

 

 

I don't think GZDoom has the ability to render multiple levels at once like Source 2, so I wonder if it could simply render the current viewport off to the side.