[Update V2] PSXDOOM / PSXFINALDOOM / DOOM64 on Gzdoom [GEC] Master Edition. DEC 17 2018.

[Gerardo194]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

You'll have to learn, then, because it's pretty much vaporware.

Vaporware???

[Gez]

It's been over a year since this thread was started, and there's been no source code since.

[Gerardo194]

I do not consider that as vaporware. We just take our time to do our things. There's no need to rush.

[ZinBinks]

2 hours ago, Gez said:

It's been over a year since this thread was started, and there's been no source code since.

A little patience would make your life better, y'know.

[Gez]

No, it wouldn't. I've been extremely patient with the XL engine and it lead nowhere. So here I fully expect that this is vaporware that will never see actual release, and this way I'm not going to be disappointed. Either I'm vindicated or I have a good surprise. :p

 

But I'm not going to waste my time waiting for this to be available.

[Lila Feuer]

Are you comparing the fuck boy for the XL engine to GEC? Lol.

[Cacodemon345]

26 minutes ago, Gez said:

No, it wouldn't. I've been extremely patient with the XL engine and it lead nowhere. So here I fully expect that this is vaporware that will never see actual release, and this way I'm not going to be disappointed. Either I'm vindicated or I have a good surprise. :p

 

But I'm not going to waste my time waiting for this to be available.

Be patient lol. It is virtue.

[ZinBinks]

It's not like mods like these always end up nowhere like the XL engine.

but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Gez]

7 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Be patient lol. It is virtue.

I am the most patient of all, as I expect this to be delivered after the heat death of the universe.

 

I'll also note in passing that GZDoom is free software, requiring distribution of any modified source code. Sure, they can get around that by no releasing compiled builds either and just keeping it to themselves entirely, but I find this to be contrary to the spirit of the license, if not the letter.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I don't see why everyone is against Gez here. I can see his reasoning and understand his stance clear as day.

There hasn't been much to show, so why keep your hopes up for when this might crash and burn? He's taking a more realistic stance.

What I hear as "patience is a virtue" or "patience would make your life better" in this context comes across as "you're wrong because you're just being pessimistic about it" and ridiculous optimism in the face of a lack of progress.

[Cacodemon345]

Basically, don't be so pessimistic.

 

About lack of progress, it is due to another project that Erick194 is working on.

[seed]

22 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

There hasn't been much to show, so why keep your hopes up for when this might crash and burn? He's taking a more realistic stance.

 

And I myself can't see this opposite.

 

We haven't seen much? Lmao, just how? I've been obsessing the screenshots and videos in the thread these days and I think we've actually seen quite a lot. The levels, menus, weapons, the games themselves in action, all of this was shown and there's been noticeable progress made.

 

I am well aware that the projects can die in virtually any moment, but for now I'm optimistic, at the start of the thread the projects were estimated to be 75% complete, I imagine they're all slowly getting there. And if they die... well at least the TC is still working with the latest version of GZDoom ( ;_; ) .

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

5 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

We haven't seen much? Lmao, just how?

Where's the source code? All we've seen so far is the project to construct the maps in the engine. We've not seen anything about the engine itself, which is the most important part.

An open source can speed progression along exponentially, but we've seen no such thing, so we don't have somebody like Gez or MTrop to help on the code and say "well, we are currently working on such-and-such code segment and so on." There's little reason to expect it will come about when progress posts are so few and far between.

[seed]

14 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Where's the source code? All we've seen so far is the project to construct the maps in the engine. We've not seen anything about the engine itself, which is the most important part.

An open source can speed progression along exponentially, but we've seen no such thing, so we don't have somebody like Gez or MTrop to help on the code and say "well, we are currently working on such-and-such code segment and so on." There's little reason to expect it will come about when progress posts are so few and far between.

 

Just because the progress is slow it doesn't mean it's never coming, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

As about the so much wanted source code that's been mentioned a few times, Erik (or Gerardo) said on the previous pages that that's not going to be seen until the projects are finished and released, so, at this time anyway, expecting that is in fact pointless.

 

I just hope I'm not dreaming for nothing.

[Erick194]

How are you @Gez, I hope you are well, I just got home from work, although I had already read all of the above in the morning, look for the term "vaporware" and surprise me, but it does not really matter, have you helped me with this project ?, Do you know what I do or not ?, well my efforts are shown here, and other things that I have also done, this project will take the time that is necessary, I am not obligated or required to hurry. With regard to the source code, they really desperate to know what I have done ?, I do not think so, more than one here is a programmer and with a little effort they can do what I have done. In addition I would not be publishing images or videos if I really was not interested in this, nor my efforts will be in vain. Anyway, thank you for your comment.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Erick194

[Gez]

2 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

have you helped me with this project ?, Do you know what I do or not ?

No, and if you think a little bit about it, you'll know why it's not possible for me to answer positively to either question.

3 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

With regard to the source code, they really desperate to know what I have done ?, I do not think so, more than one here is a programmer and with a little effort they can do what I have done.

The source code for GZDoom is freely available to you, as are the source codes for Doom64 EX, all Doom Builder forks, SLADE 3, etc. it'd only be common courtesy to make your changes freely available as well, that's the basic ethic of free and open source software.

And there's no desperation here. I'm very dispassionate about the whole thing. I played through Doom 64 using Kaiser's port and that was enough to scratch my itch, so to speak.

[Erick194]

8 minutes ago, Gez said:

that was enough to scratch my itch

So my friend, you will not find much difference in my projects at the end. And you're right, I can not create a port from scratch, and I thank those free source codes, but I still do not consider releasing them, that will be in the future.

[Dragonsbrethren]

I think it's pretty silly that you're not posting the source and builds, personally.

[Job]

That's his prerogative. Unless someone else wants to find it and share it themselves, there isn't much else to say. 

[Dragonsbrethren]

Of course, but I don't really see any advantage to it. It reminds me of too many projects that I've worked on which were done in secret and died without anyone ever getting to play what was completed of them. Everyone's motivation to work on things runs out eventually, but releasing the source at least means someone else can pick up where you left off.

 

It also reminds me of this clause that irked me in the Master Edition thread:

 

Quote

The maps in development cannot be shown to the public(e.g. uploading them on the Internet)

 

[Erick194]

You know why I put that rule, how it would make sense to get to the end of the project when the maps were played before.

[Dexiaz]

3 hours ago, Dragonsbrethren said:

but releasing the source at least means someone else can pick up where you left off.

 

Some people who abandons their project just posts all of their work to the community. So, while this project is alive no need to post it's source code to anyone.

 

Still, I understand your frustration about "top secret" status of both projects. Kinda sad, but...

Anyway, I'm not complaining just because I really wanted to hack PSX Doom, and the only 2 guys who really find the way to do it - brothers. I agree with all conditions due to this.

 

[seed]

1 hour ago, DeXiaZ said:

Some people who abandon their project just post all of their work to the community. So, while this project is alive no need to post its source code to anyone.

 

Pretty much.

 

Besides, maybe they just want to do them themselves, nothing wrong with that. Sure, less manpower means more time but as long as they're coming I'm waiting. Now let's go back to enjoying what we're seeing xdd.

[CoTeCiO]

I see the point in complaining about the lack of builds and source code, it goes against what a community is, in my opinion. I'm not very fond of this secretive, "closed-source" style of managing projects, specially when based on open-source software, it kind of goes against the philosophy of it. It's a lot better when done the open way, for example, Blzut3 is making nighly builds of ECWolf (which is based on Wolf4SDL, another open-source Wolf3D port), with work-in-progress new features, constantly despite not releasing a stable release in almost two years, Doom 64 for Doom II was done the same way too, which was open for everyone to play around with and yet a lot of people voluntarily waited for the project to be done before playing through it and a lot of feedback and bug reporting came from people who decided to pick the beta builds and try them. I did something similar with my mod Town Infection, I was releasing and showing the beta versions as I was making them and so and so forth. I don't see why this project has to be different. The only reason that comes to mind is the expectation that releasing it suddenly is going to have more impact on the community by taking it by storm, which may backfire if people lose interest and move on.

 

My point is, that PSX Doom rule is ridiculous and your reason to have it there is not good enough. Why worry so much about releasing the maps for PSX Doom Master Edition if, even further, the tools to create a full PSX image are unavailable (which is even another point to consider, keeping useful tools for yourself), nobody is going to go through the hassle of importing each map to play individually, one by one. And if some do, oh well, I know most people are going to wait for it to be finished because they would have to build the CD image for the mod to play it, not something people would like to do over and over again when the project is still being worked on.

 

Also, this reminded me of something. A while back I saw a thread in the ZDoom forums of a tool to make vanilla maps look like Doom 64 ones that looked great and well... Unfinished, abandoned and unavailable. I'm not saying Erick is going to abandon this project, but not everybody makes the working files available once a project gets abandoned and it is a possibility. A real pity.

 

Oh well, in the end, it's his project, it's his decision how to manage it.

[Quasar]

In the end, information wants to be free. I've already done a ton of work reversing PSX Doom (as well as Doom RPG...); eventually that is going to bear fruit in a project similar to Calico, with a super-high degree of accuracy to the original. Whether that will be before or after these other projects, I don't yet know, but it's nearly inevitable, like a force of nature - it's in my blood to work on that kind of stuff. Frankly I feel it's a shame that certain info - like how to interpret all of the commands in WMD MIDI files - hasn't been shared in the form of binary format specs, as it just means more duplicated effort. But, if it's effort that proves itself necessary in the end, then I will certainly - eventually - do it. The Doom community was largely built and thrives on cooperation, not competition. It works better when everybody works together.

[Nevander]

My main concern is not so much for the project itself since I have my own project to manage but rather exactly HOW they did the Doom 64 effects and all that kind of stuff within GZDoom. We need these tricks and effects to be known publicly so everyone including myself can possibly start making use of them in maps and other projects. If it's done in GZDoom, it can be merged into the main branch somehow. If Graf says it can't then we will just let the GEC guys do it since they seem to be better at this kind of thing.

[Gez]

All Doom 64 effects can be replicated in GZDoom already. Skies not blocking sight of walls? There's a sector type for that. Light gradients on walls, separate light colors for floor/ceiling/thing/upper walls and lower walls? It's in, too. Macros are easy to replicate with ACS. There's no direct replication of how the unmaker's laser ray is projected, but you can make the same effect through other means, and with less wobbling even.

 

The only neat thing is in having the ability to directly play PSX and N64 Doom without having to go through conversions. Which means having the engine read and interpret directly the formats used for sound, music, graphics, levels, etc. That's pretty neat I must admit. But it doesn't bring anything new to the table modding-wise.

[Nevander]

2 hours ago, Gez said:

All Doom 64 effects can be replicated in GZDoom already. Skies not blocking sight of walls? There's a sector type for that. Light gradients on walls, separate light colors for floor/ceiling/thing/upper walls and lower walls? It's in, too. Macros are easy to replicate with ACS. There's no direct replication of how the unmaker's laser ray is projected, but you can make the same effect through other means, and with less wobbling even.

 

The only neat thing is in having the ability to directly play PSX and N64 Doom without having to go through conversions. Which means having the engine read and interpret directly the formats used for sound, music, graphics, levels, etc. That's pretty neat I must admit. But it doesn't bring anything new to the table modding-wise.

What about additive sector lighting and changing light gradients with ACS? GZDoom can't do those. I also learned recently that GZDoom can't even apply glows or gradient lighting from a 3D floor, so that's a bit of a problem. That essentially means I have to fake it with ugly hacks like modified textures or placing dynamic lights, or even worse, downgrading levels to remove 3D floors and use the sky hide thing and use scripts to do the outdated height change stuff.

 

These guys have all this shit already figured out and it's all built into their modified engine, even down to something like modifying how and where HUD messages are placed.

 

This engine is basically the Doom 64 engine rebuilt with a GZDoom codebase and we have to know how.

[Gez]

3 minutes ago, Nevander said:

I also learned recently that GZDoom can't even apply glows or gradient lighting from a 3D floor, so that's a bit of a problem.

Oh, I guess you had yet to learn that Doom 64 also can't even apply glows or gradient lighting from a 3D floor. I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news here.

[Gerardo194]

Wow, most of these comments are extremely ridiculous XD

People complaining a year later this project started, how dramatic. We didn't know you guys were so worried about us. Are we most popular than Jesus?. Thank you guys. We love you.

 

Can anyone tell me why everything has gone slowly and there is no much activity from us in this thread? 

Most of you have said nonsense things, judging without reason(a year later) and not having the humility to ask us: -"Hey, GEC guys! How are you? How is it going with your projects? Can I help you out with something?" No! You just waited for a pessimist comment to pour everything from your guts out. Making the thread popular.

 

How can I make you understand that nobody is making any competition here. We just take our time to get the things done. I must say, there have been many plan changes about all of our projects, your projects. But we also have things to do as well, our life. We don't see the need to speed up this project when we're seeing progress in Master Edition Doom, thanks to you guys, although there are two of them complaining here, that's sad but it doesn't matter...

 

Now...

@DeXiaZ thank you very much for helping us. Situations like these have made us to know and get along well each other. Besides, we have things to talk about this project, yes, this project in its due time. 

When we started the Master Edition Doom project and you were offline those days. We must admit we were very worried about you.

@Nevander I have said many times that we were going to help you, but this help have taken a long time just like this project. We GEC, are having many plan changes. There's nothing to be worried about. When things get done, we hope to have a good conversation about it.

 

There will be good news, I'm happy to be the bringer of good news here.

Patience is a virtue, thanks everybody and @Cacodemon345

 

“A perfectionist has to take his time; he shapes and he molds and he sculpts that thing until it's perfect"

-Michael Jackson.