What is the worst monster placement you have ever seen in a WAD?

Pretty much every map by Chris Wright.

To hardcore_gamer,

First of all, I can't speak for Kristus, but I do peronally see this thread as a perfect example of a troll thread. Sure, you may not like Doom 2, but referring to its level design as shitty in a factual manner is bound to spark debate, and the inevitable flames that accompany it. Yep. Maybe your intent isn't to troll, but I think foresight would stop you from posting something of that nature.

Worst monster placement in a wad? 1monster.wad, simply because the idea itself is pretty counter-intuitive.

Snakes said:

Worst monster placement in a wad? 1monster.wad, simply because the idea itself is pretty counter-intuitive.

I disagree. Go play that map with Demons and try to convince me. Really, demons = horror.

I'm not saying that the atmosphere or level design was bad. On the contrary, the spectre level (I think there was only one) had great atmosphere, but the fact that it leaves out the possibility for infighting (except for hitscanner levels, of course) is something I find remarkably frustrating. To me, infighting is perhaps the best tactic usable in Doom.

Ven said:

Pretty much every map by Chris Wright.

this.

Most "worst ever" threads tend to create either arguments or garbage posts due to their inherent negativity. As this one, they tend to be made made by pretty stupid individuals that can do little else than mope about the things they don't like, since they are too mediocre to actually enjoy things except by considering something else is worse.

Snakes said:

To hardcore_gamer,

First of all, I can't speak for Kristus, but I do peronally see this thread as a perfect example of a troll thread. Sure, you may not like Doom 2, but referring to its level design as shitty in a factual manner is bound to spark debate, and the inevitable flames that accompany it. Yep. Maybe your intent isn't to troll, but I think foresight would stop you from posting something of that nature.

When I look back at that Doom 2 thread I guess I should have picked different words to describe it. Its just that I am use to talking like that in real life so its just casual talk to me and I sometimes forget how it sounds when it is read by someone who can't actually hear or see you.

myk said:

Most "worst ever" threads tend to create either arguments or garbage posts due to their inherent negativity. As this one, they tend to be made made by pretty stupid individuals that can do little else than mope about the things they don't like, since they are too mediocre to actually enjoy things except by considering something else is worse.

I don't really agree. Some WADS like Nuts.wad are so infamous that entire parodies have been made based on it thus putting the wad into the "so bad its good" territory.

Bad WADS have their place as well, you know :)

hardcore_gamer said:
I don't really agree.

I noticed, captain, else you would not post like this. The reason I said that is to discourage this sort of general pessimistic attitude or behavior. Assuming you can learn at least a bit, I'll be expecting you to think twice before making any other such fretful threads in the future.

In any case, Nuts is a parody.

Snakes said:

To hardcore_gamer,
Worst monster placement in a wad? 1monster.wad, simply because the idea itself is pretty counter-intuitive.

What was so bad about it? (just so I know for future reference :))

Macro11_1 said:

What was so bad about it? (just so I know for future reference :))

I think he is talking about the community project where each author was only allowed to use a single monster type in each level.

My guess is that he did not like it because once you have seen the first monster you have seen all of them......literally.

hardcore_gamer said:

I think he is talking about the community project where each author was only allowed to use a single monster type in each level.

My guess is that he did not like it because once you have seen the first monster you have seen all of them......literally.

Thank you for attempting to give me a quick reply, though I know the wad he is talking about... I was one of the people involved in that project.

Also, is that your opinion, or just what you think his opinion is?

In either case, what you stated there is kind of what the project was all about, one monster per map. We knew it was experimental to begin with, however the way you stated your reasoning leads me to believe it was not a problem with the wad, but rather your taste(which is not a problem) did not match the wad and you learned that from playing it.

Kristus always talks like that. I'm pretty certain if I had made this thread before you did he would have the same response. I can't think of what it was in particular, but I don't feel very warm towards kristus being as though I'm pretty sure he had said something similar towards me in one of the threads I made. I don't hate him for it, and much less argue about it.

Almost everytime I see him post it's a short witty response to the original topic of the thread.

40oz said:

Making a map pistol start friendly is as simple as putting a chainsaw in the starting room, or a chaingun and a couple bullet boxes.

It helps, but it's not the complete solution...as there might not be enough ammo in the map to kill everything. (plus you won't have any armour or extra health that you might bring in from the previous map)

The Ultimate DooMer said:

It helps, but it's not the complete solution...as there might not be enough ammo in the map to kill everything. (plus you won't have any armour or extra health that you might bring in from the previous map)

It can be presumed that the mapper had some consideration of the monster-to-ammo ratio, even if the player enters the map with guns and some ammo. Also presuming that there are more shotgun guys than hell barons the player has to deal with (especially in an E1 replacement). Expecting to player to have entered the map with a backpack jammed with ammo is even MORE irresponsible and IMO unreasonably lazy.

A regular shotgun + two boxes of shells can really get you pretty far against doom's plethora of monsters. And a chainsaw can easily get rid of imps and demons without chewing up all your pistol bullets right away.

There was a lot of shitty monster placement in Tuning Contest 3. There was one map with a part where you were attacked by about 8 chain gunners which normally wouldn't be a problem except the author decided to throw in an earthquake with the max intensity, making it nearly impossible to hit them or see what you were doing for that matter. There was another map where the monsters were placed in such a way that it made it completely unplayable and left me wondering if the author had even tested it. Putting stealth monsters right in front of doorways so you'd immediately run into them and get mauled was bad enough, but what was that right before the boss fight, it threw you in a 128x256 room and spawned an insane amount of hell knights, imps, and revenants, without any spare ammo or health. Not too bad but after that you go straight to the boss. You don't get any extra health and you don't get any extra ammo, and to make matters worse, you're lucky if you have at least 2 shells left after all that. Oh and you have to kill the boss 4 times. Really stupid shit.

Another example pack with monster issues is Doom 64. There are way too many hell knights and hell barons, that I got fed up playing it and quit by midgame.

My first choice would be MAP09 of Hellcore 2. Nice looking map, great atmosphere but all they came up with was to assault the player with a gigantic horde of Demons? Sorry, but utter fail in my book and will probably forever remain the most idiotic thing I've seen in a serious Doom project.

printz said:

Another example pack with monster issues is Doom 64. There are way too many hell knights and hell barons, that I got fed up playing it and quit by midgame.

I'm appalled that you said that. Doom64, I'm pretty sure, holds number one as the greatest doom experience I've ever had. I played that thing all the way through and had fun the entire time.

40oz said:

I'm appalled that you said that. Doom64, I'm pretty sure, holds number one as the greatest doom experience I've ever had. I played that thing all the way through and had fun the entire time.

Yea.

I was more annoyed with how colorless the visuals were compared to PSX Doom rather then the actual gameplay.

Graf Zahl said:

Guess what: It was never intended for pistol start and therefore not or only poorly tested as such. Don't judge a WAD by a play style it wasn't made for.

This coming from the guy who admittedly and openly edits any Doom wad that comes his way to cater to his own taste.

"Final Doom" for PC. What a bullshit monster placement!

@Use3D

So? What has that to do with the topic. Of course Printz is free to add the ammo he thinks is missing at the start of the map if he so desires.

It's a completely different thing to make some private modifications than to complain about a WAD not being something you'd like it to be.

But well, I think people like you have to bitch about such things...

Graf Zahl said:

@Use3D

Of course Printz is free to add the ammo he thinks is missing at the start of the map if he so desires...
But well, I think people like you have to bitch about such things...

I suppose you're right, we should all start editing other people's work when it doesn't suit or definition of what to expect from a wad instead of simply criticizing the wad for what it really is. People like me? Oh you mean people who call you out on your shit, got it.

I don't see why anyone would keep a catalogue of maps they thought had poor monster placement. Sure, I've played a few levels with what I'd consider to be maps with poor monster placement, but I honestly don't remember which maps those were without looking for them again.

Use3D said:

People like me?

Admit it, the only reason you attack my attitude is because it's my attitude. I'd call that hypocritical. But there seems to be a larger number of that kind here that selectively adjust their view on what's right based on who is posting it.

Besides, it's none of your damn business what I do with stuff on my computer as long as it stays there, don't you think?

Siggi said:

I don't see why anyone would keep a catalogue of maps they thought had poor monster placement. Sure, I've played a few levels with what I'd consider to be maps with poor monster placement, but I honestly don't remember which maps those were without looking for them again.

Indeed. But sometimes something comes along that you just remember even though you'd never voluntarily play it again. Aside from the abovementioned Hellcore map (and Sadhusct, the epitome of utter shittiness...) I'd have a hard time remembering truly bad maps (monster placement wise or anything else) because I normally delete them.

Besides, it's none of your damn business what I do with stuff on my computer as long as it stays there, don't you think?

That much is true, but the second you post something like "I've made a patch that change any of these stupid levels with tons of revenants into something much more sensible", which I've seen you do, you're voicing an opinion about bad monster placement just as much as the people participating... sorry, "complaining" in this topic.

Graf Zahl said:

Besides, it's none of your damn business what I do with stuff on my computer as long as it stays there, don't you think?

While your reasoning is correct, being as though it is YOUR computer, and you aren't sharing it with other people, as well as keeping yourself from needing to complain about the maps, I still feel that it's immoral to edit someone elses work. I'm not sure why, it just feels like the wrong thing to do. I'm hesitant to even open up people's maps (Including DOOM2.wad) in a map editor even if I don't intend to touch or change anything. It feels wrong to know what line actions do what, find all the secrets, etc. in anything other than playing the wad.

I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just my personal opinion.

Phml said:

That much is true, but the second you post something like "I've made a patch that change any of these stupid levels with tons of revenants into something much more sensible"

No, I once made a post that I made a DEH patch that I can use with levels when I feel like it.

The rest just goes along the lines of this thread, i.e. I consider it bad monster placement.

40oz said:

While your reasoning is correct, being as though it is YOUR computer, and you aren't sharing it with other people, as well as keeping yourself from needing to complain about the maps, I still feel that it's immoral to edit someone elses work. I'm not sure why, it just feels like the wrong thing to do. I'm hesitant to even open up people's maps (Including DOOM2.wad) in a map editor even if I don't intend to touch or change anything. It feels wrong to know what line actions do what, find all the secrets, etc. in anything other than playing the wad.

I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just my personal opinion.

Ok, now please answer me one question: What's so special about Doom maps that some people consider it immoral to tinker with them in any way? People are doing this stuff all the time, even with things where it's illegal. Got a hacked iPhone to get around Apple's limitations? Many people brag about this and the general consensus seems to be that it's morally ok 'because Apple is retarded'. There's tons of other things where similar logic applies. So again: What's so special about Doom maps that such logic does not apply?

Well, 4O0z did say that he doesn't know why. It's just a feeling.

Graf Zahl said:

Of course Printz is free to add the ammo he thinks is missing at the start of the map if he so desires.

LOL if I feel like it I just Give myself the ammo :P