I made a really hard wad

[Grain of Salt]

16 hours ago, Charbomber said:

I didn't intend for the map to be fun.

 

This is a legitimate mapping approach, ignore the haters :3

[Reisal]

 

If you are going to make a challenging map, at least put some effort into making it. This does not interest me in the slightest.

 

Go back to the drawing board and spend 3-5 hours (or more) making a reasonable map for the community to enjoy and give feedback on.

[Super Mighty G]

13 hours ago, [Vitz!] said:

You know something is wrong when way too many people are giving attention to a random guy saying he made "wow super hard wad" while others post more serious content and get straight up ignored. 

Btw I sense some really low quality bait in this topic and wad, so I'll pass and play something else, thank you.

Honestly this. People are making maps looking to improve and get feedback and they just get buried under all the threads. Meanwhile what is effectively a shitpost gets 20+ comments. Very disheartening. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

Okay, since you're all busy ranting over how this got as much attention as it did, let's look at the first page, shall we?

 

We got bullshit memes, a few suggestions for future maps and threads, and several responses from the mapper, which as far as I can tell might come across a mite goofy for some, but appear to be overall in good spirit.

 

What exactly is the problem here? The mapper wanted their map to do a specific thing, and aside of the issue that the map doesn't run in literally every port as the OP suggests, the map accomplishes mostly what it says on the tin, despite the lack of "serious effort".

 

I'm just sayin'...

[Charbomber]

13 hours ago, Juza said:

@[Vitz!] I wouldn't call him a troll. I'd rather not embarrass anyone, but I've seen him in Doom servers and from his posts he's clearly a very young fella. I'm sure he didn't mean any harm with this level.

Most of those (If you're talking about me) are really old posts.

I used to make terry wads... ehg, yeah, I know.

[Charbomber]

I see that a lot of people misunderstood the point of the map.

Most people either saw the "It's not supposed to be fun" and then completely disregarded the rest (least likely option, I hope, people are smart right?)

or people just misunderstood it.

What I mean by "It's not supposed to be fun" isn't that this wad is a meme wad or something. I can't really explain myself why a wad like this is kinda fun in it's own way, but in my opinion it is. It's just a small ridiculously difficult wad that makes you go to Underhalls. Sure, it's not the best map ever, and I certainly didn't want it to be the best wad ever, but this wad certainly isn't a troll wad.

I know I used this example in an earlier post, but I made this in the same vein as those Mario Maker levels that people make that's just one super big complicated lock. Are those fun? Hell no. Are the interesting? Hell yes. This may not be interesting, but for some reason, one of those Mario Maker lock levels doesn't have to be interesting for me to be good to me. I don't know why, it's just something I feel.

I'm sorry if people get mad that this is getting a lot of intention for a "troll wad", but it's just not a troll wad. Sorry and thank you. I can only offer an explanation.

[Boomslang]

16 hours ago, [Vitz!] said:

You know something is wrong when way too many people are giving attention to a random guy saying he made "wow super hard wad" while others post more serious content and get straight up ignored. 

Btw I sense some really low quality bait in this topic and wad, so I'll pass and play something else, thank you.

this, this happens to me so much as an artist.

[Z0k]

3 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

Honestly this. People are making maps looking to improve and get feedback and they just get buried under all the threads. Meanwhile what is effectively a shitpost gets 20+ comments. Very disheartening.  

 

i was about to post about it in this thread but... though that would be a bad idea because made me remember the time i post for the first time some of my wads to  feedback to improve as mapper and only got 3 replies and felt bad because i really want to improve as mapper and dont know what things i do bad. a friend mine posted his first wad for hexen too and got buried in threads so he didnt got feedback but im happy how is going with his work though. so yeah is dissapointing how wads like this one get attention and people looking feedback to get better just ignored.

 

1 hour ago, Charbomber said:

What I mean by "It's not supposed to be fun" isn't that this wad is a meme wad or something. I can't really explain myself why a wad like this is kinda fun in it's own way, but in my opinion it is. It's just a small ridiculously difficult wad that makes you go to Underhalls. Sure, it's not the best map ever, and I certainly didn't want it to be the best wad ever, but this wad certainly isn't a troll wad.

I know I used this example in an earlier post, but I made this in the same vein as those Mario Maker levels that people make that's just one super big complicated lock. Are those fun? Hell no. Are the interesting? Hell yes. This may not be interesting, but for some reason, one of those Mario Maker lock levels doesn't have to be interesting for me to be good to me. I don't know why, it's just something I feel.

 

i dont agree, doom and mario have now a easy way to do levels, anyone can do whatever they want. but also both game have their own standards and we can say but yeah is the same there are troll levels, joke levels, hard levels, etc. the BIG difference is the genre, and no i dont talk about doom being bit more violent than mario and mario being well... mario because i cant call it cute. Doom is a first person shooter while mario or at least mario maker is a platformer.

 

the reason those mario levels arent that bad commented is because 2d platformers locks you to a very basic game actions, so what make "interesting" those type of levels you talk about are those mechanics, levels that dont require you press a single button, levels that plays somehow music while you do nothing, puzzles games etc, and so on because those kind of level werent in the original games. Also as far i know and i said this because i only saw it through videos since i dont have mario maker but im pretty sure you cant set invisible obstacles and with invisible i mean REALLY invisible and not give aways like small dots blocks or translucent textures. make a level entirely just of a big invisible maze without give aways in mario maker and see if you get those "interesting" rate in your level i betcha you wouldnt.

 

 in doom you have more game perspective you arent locked just to right or left you can move freely in any direction. and this mean you have more depth and space to make an interesting level design. so yeah an invisible maze definitevely cant be like those "frustrating but interesting and fun in a way like those mario maker levels" because as i told you the game have more freedom of movement so now with a maze in a game where i can move north south east and west? frustrating because there are more paths to walk than just a left and right game like mario.

 

you know how i can compare this map to a mario level? remember the super mario bros the last castle where is the teleport maze if you pick the wrong one you get back to the start? well its like those but now you have to choose the right parth between 20 tunnels adn everything you get the right one you have to choose another path from 20 paths and so on until yo do that like 30 times but pick the wrong one and you are back to the start and all of them looks the same not a sign of which one is the right one unlike the original super mario. fun? no, interesting? no, frustrating? yes and the crusher that kill you is the timer and you have only 300 secs to complete the level. thats how your level is like in doom.

 

i feel bad by replying this thread and the reason is because probably you read all the comments in the section and laugh about it because you "succefuly" trolled the doom community and talking about this in troll community or with friends though.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Z0k

[Charbomber]

49 minutes ago, Z0k said:

i feel bad by replying this thread and the reason is because probably you read all the comments in the section and laugh about it because you "succefuly" trolled the doom community and talking about this in troll community or with friends though.

I literally stated that this is not meant as a troll level. I am troll free, and I don't plan to in the future. Why the hell would I start now? I don't understand how me making what I thought was an interesting idea (even though I knew many people wouldn't like the gameplay obviously) is a troll level. A troll level is terry flashing colors teleporting randomly into bossfights with two hundred rockets bullshit, this is an invisible maze I made for fun. You could argue that this is an unintentional troll, in which I'm sorry? But I can't really fix that you don't like something I made for another reason than for people to have fun playing. 

Also, I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a troll community.

[Grain of Salt]

I think the mario maker thing is a good comparison for explaining how ostensibly "unfun" things can be fun and interesting.

 

But doom players shouldn't really need such an example, we have a pretty long tradition of doing similar things in doom tbqh. There's a Time of Death map where you just fight a long line of each enemy type, and I will not hear a bad word said about it. Making and doing silly challenges is fun, and a necessary part of a healthy dooming diet.

[printz]

Teleportation landmine mazes are interesting because the lines are one-way triggerable. This means they only block you from one side; the other side is a free gateway, thus giving way to more complex mazes than just 2D. This can be even made visible in DOOM by having one-side-only middle textures.

 

But I guess this can be achieved in a more humane manner by just using 3D walls-and-ditches for labyrinths, no gratuitous telefragging. 

 

Hell, I also happen to like actual teleport mazes which don't kill you, especially if they give clues. I can easily use the automap to mark all places as I go through. It feels like I'm solving a puzzle. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

10 hours ago, Z0k said:

 

i dont agree, doom and mario have now a easy way to do levels, anyone can do whatever they want. but also both game have their own standards

And I'm gonna stop you right there and tell you that your standards are irrelevant. It doesn't matter that this isn't Mario Maker, people can still put whatever they so desire into their maps, and your ramble changes nothing about that.

 

The OP said right out the gate what this map was, then ya'll downloaded it, and found out it does what it says on the tin. None of that has anything to do with trolling, period. But somehow you people still manage to somehow complain about something.

[R1ck]

How I feel in this entire thread

 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

The High Council has been notified of this situation, and a full investigation will be underway shortly. Be prepared to have your entire WAD collection audited. I hope you have your .wad.backup files in order because they will ask for them. You may get off lucky with a simple Doom Builder Suspension, but don't be surprised if they revoke your mapping license entirely. After a 2 year period, you may file a Rebuttal with the Council's Disgraced Mapper Division, but I should warn you, rebuttals have had a 0.0073% success rate in the last 12 years. 

 

A Doomworld Discharge package is available however, which comes with a lifetime membership to the Duke Nukem Forever forums, and a free copy of Maximum Doom.

[Scorpius]

On 12/18/2019 at 5:13 AM, [Vitz!] said:

You know something is wrong when way too many people are giving attention to a random guy saying he made "wow super hard wad" while others post more serious content and get straight up ignored. 

Btw I sense some really low quality bait in this topic and wad, so I'll pass and play something else, thank you.

 

EDIT: PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST. I COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD THIS THREAD.

 

I know everyone is quoting this but it's very true even for someone like me. I know not a lot of people bother with first-time WADs, and I think it's kind of a shame because it brings in new light into the community and a healthy sign of growth. This was what I was initially worried about with my project, the fact that not many people would play it. A few days before I released it, I then realized something. I should 100% NOT have to worry about putting out something out too soon, especially out of impatience as pointed out by TheNoob_Gamer. Instead, you should focus on making the WAD - whether it's a single map or a full megawad - actually decent and worth downloading. This is not what seems to have happened here. Allow me to provide feedback and criticism.

 

First of all, as pointed out by several people, an invisible maze that insta-kills you is just a bad idea. There is absolutely zero fun in guessing where to go and make it through the maze without dying. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if anyone used IDDQD or IDDT to get through this. There are no monsters, weapons, items, secrets, or anything to make it slightly more interesting. This could've and most likely was made in about 5-10 minutes. And to top it all off, if this wasn't meant to be fun to play as you stated, then please don't put it out. I can understand if it is a beta or prototype map, but no one will bother to play it if you very clearly stated:

On 12/17/2019 at 11:02 PM, Charbomber said:

I know. I didn't intend for the map to be fun.

 

When you make your mapping debut into the DOOM community, I think it should reflect you as a person. Your style of mapping will show what kind of a person you are. For example, if you put your heart and soul into something and your aim is to make it good, it shows that you care about DOOM. You are willing to put out quality for the community to enjoy, people who have the same interest as you, killing demons! After seeing the comments and playing it myself, this just shows you are at the very least lazy and unwilling to put out something decent for the community to enjoy. I almost suffered this same fate a few years ago, when I was a newbie. If you plan to make more maps in the future, this will reflect badly for you. You can redeem yourself, if you are willing and able to make a good quality map. Just think twice before you put it out and think to yourself, "is this actually worth putting it on the Internet and people playing it?" That is my advice to you.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Scorpius

[Archanhell]

On 12/18/2019 at 12:13 AM, [Vitz!] said:

You know something is wrong when way too many people are giving attention to a random guy saying he made "wow super hard wad" while others post more serious content and get straight up ignored. 

Btw I sense some really low quality bait in this topic and wad, so I'll pass and play something else, thank you.

 

Cough The first WAD I made which was fully serious after about one week Cough

 

Myself as a mapper, while I think that this is for certain low effort, It's okay he wants to experiment with new concepts and ways of playing the game, just as many have done throughout the years.

For sure, he could have given way more effort and done something much better, fun and with even a real objective in mind.

I could as well help you if you need it @Charbomber, but right now myself I'm busy with my own Project, however look at all the positive comments, look at how @Boomslang kind of like gave you an small, visual example of a good map.

If you want to make a maze, start with a "Hub" area, from there drift to many more areas, each full of traps, different layouts, and a specific objective, like activating switches, getting keys, opening passages, beating enemies, etc.

 

But first of all and as I've been adviced, you should start small, before doing that you could make a smaller map, the size of DooM II's MAP01 or DooM's E1M1, explore the Builder, discover new ways to give the player's some fun, etc.

If you can do this, you can do anything, use the potential you have in order to give your grain of sand to the DooM community.

 

Quote

He's definitely not baiting, just an impatience person who is eager to release any playable thing he made.

 

Like he said, this is not bait at all, by the way.

I am impatient too, but I know what's the best and what's not, on this case if I were him, I'd just enjoy mapping instead of wanting to give anything to the community, no one is forced to do so, this is for fun and that's all.

 

..

I also write stories, so uh I tend to write bibles.

Also I just read the first page of this thread, heh.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Archanhell

[Nine Inch Heels]

7 hours ago, Scorpius said:

Just think twice before you put it out and think to yourself, "is this actually worth putting it on the Internet and people playing it?" That is my advice to you.

People like you are the reason why I have a love/hate relationship with this community.

 

Do you have any idea what the subtext of your ramble is? If not, let me help you out a little...

 

Your entire post only aims to make people afraid of sharing their first ever mapping attempts, because for some reason you think there's "a correct way" to do things, and if people do not adhere to that way of doing things, then the crushing weight of the community's dismay is to be feared. You, and people like you, are literally creating an environment that makes people hesitant to share their work, because god help the poor soul whose map/gimmick/proof of concept doesn't meet some arbitrary standard.

 

Why is this not worth putting on the internet? It is what it says on the box, and maybe somebody is interested in having a look. In fact, some people were interested, so it was already worth uploading. Nobody cares that this didn't include you. But here you are anyway, talking down on somebody who was upfront about what they uploaded, as if they're not worthy of anybody's attention and now need to fear "this community's anger and hatred".

 

And to all those crybabies and memers who are angry that this got more "attention" than their latest map which they worked on, why do you think did this topic get "hot" in the first place? It's because you folks came in here to dog-pile on this to your heart's content, which made this thread show up on the front page in the first place. How do you think I found it to begin with? You people literally created the "problem" you're complaining about yourselves. And while we're at it: Look at this thread and ask yourselves if this is the kind of attention you'd be envious about to begin with.

[Scorpius]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

People like you are the reason why I have a love/hate relationship with this community.

 

Do you have any idea what the subtext of your ramble is? If not, let me help you out a little...

 

Your entire post only aims to make people afraid of sharing their first ever mapping attempts, because for some reason you think there's "a correct way" to do things, and if people do not adhere to that way of doing things, then the crushing weight of the community's dismay is to be feared. You, and people like you, are literally creating an environment that makes people hesitant to share their work, because god help the poor soul whose map/gimmick/proof of concept doesn't meet some arbitrary standard.

 

Why is this not worth putting on the internet? It is what it says on the box, and maybe somebody is interested in having a look. In fact, some people were interested, so it was already worth uploading. Nobody cares that this didn't include you. But here you are anyway, talking down on somebody who was upfront about what they uploaded, as if they're not worthy of anybody's attention and now need to fear "this community's anger and hatred".

 

And to all those crybabies and memers who are angry that this got more "attention" than their latest map which they worked on, why do you think did this topic get "hot" in the first place? It's because you folks came in here to dog-pile on this to your heart's content, which made this thread show up on the front page in the first place. How do you think I found it to begin with? You people literally created the "problem" you're complaining about yourselves. And while we're at it: Look at this thread and ask yourselves if this is the kind of attention you'd be envious about to begin with.

 

I'm very sorry, I went way too far with that post. I should've looked into this thread more closely and I should definitely know my limits. I should make it clear that I am autistic (therefore I don't understand a lot of things), but do not see this as an excuse because I should know better. Also, I am relatively new to the community, so I don't know where the line is from actual feedback and criticism to flat-out hatred.

 

Thank you for letting me know that this was a gimmick map, never realized that until now, don't ask me how. My natural reaction to most things is to act without thinking, and I know that is certainly not a good thing. I never intended to make people afraid about sharing their first work or anything hostile like that, and you are absolutely right that there is no "correct way" to do things. I agree that it's stupid for people to think that there actually is a "right way" to do things. I do not understand the sentence "the crushing weight of the community's dismay is to be feared," so if you could please explain what this means, I would appreciate it. I fully support people sharing their first maps, as I stated here: 

8 hours ago, Scorpius said:

I think it's kind of a shame because it brings in new light into the community and a healthy sign of growth.

 

What I absolutely do not support at all are those people creating that environment that makes people hesitant, I think it's kinda gross. I am absolutely NOT part of these people. My intentions was to provide my honest feedback and opinions about this WAD. I didn't think about other people when I went on a unusual tangent. I am fully aware that they were upfront about this WAD, and I never mentioned that people should not play this. I think it's a good idea for a death maze like this, I just thought the execution wasn't as good as it could've been done. I know the last paragraph wasn't aimed particularly at me, but I 100% agree with you about the dog-piling section. That's in fact how I found this thread as well.

 

I still believe in and stick by what I said here: 

8 hours ago, Scorpius said:

When you make your mapping debut into the DOOM community, I think it should reflect you as a person. Your style of mapping will show what kind of a person you are. For example, if you put your heart and soul into something and your aim is to make it good, it shows that you care about DOOM. You are willing to put out quality for the community to enjoy, people who have the same interest as you, killing demons!

 

Once again, I'm sorry about my harsh post. I will be careful when critiquing other people's work in the future. I am very angry and disappointed with myself, as I know I definitely could've phrased it better. I am also sorry to Charbomber, please don't take my unnecessarily stupid post personally. I fully believe in you. I won't post here again, as I now fear that anything else I say, it will stir up more drama and hatred. Please forgive me for my stupidity and foolishness.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Scorpius : Should've been more concise.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, Scorpius said:

I do not understand the sentence "the crushing weight of the community's dismay is to be feared," so if you could please explain what this means, I would appreciate it.

Okay, this is what I was referring to:

8 hours ago, Scorpius said:

If you plan to make more maps in the future, this will reflect badly for you.

This to me reads like there's an image or "PR problem" that may occur when somehow something isn't good enough. And in the context of this thread it's very easy to read it like that. If that makes any sense.

[Scorpius]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

This to me reads like there's an image or "PR problem" that may occur when somehow something isn't good enough. And in the context of this thread it's very easy to read it like that. If that makes any sense.

 

Damn, I said that? Bloody hell. Yeah, I totally understand and agree then. It can definitely be interpreted like that in this context. Didn't mean any of it, I promise. Can I also just say the "think twice" thing I said is now ironic. I should've thought twice about posting that. :/

[Charbomber]

9 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

The High Council has been notified of this situation, and a full investigation will be underway shortly. Be prepared to have your entire WAD collection audited. I hope you have your .wad.backup files in order because they will ask for them. You may get off lucky with a simple Doom Builder Suspension, but don't be surprised if they revoke your mapping license entirely. After a 2 year period, you may file a Rebuttal with the Council's Disgraced Mapper Division, but I should warn you, rebuttals have had a 0.0073% success rate in the last 12 years. 

 

A Doomworld Discharge package is available however, which comes with a lifetime membership to the Duke Nukem Forever forums, and a free copy of Maximum Doom.

Honestly I hope most of my forgotten wads published were deleted, as I said before, I used to make terry wads, and no one want's to see those. I always forget to delete them, so I'm doing that now if they aren't already deleted.

Edit: Oh... reading into this a bit more, I only read the first part, not getting that this was a joke. Whoopsie.


I literally did the thing I said I hope people don't do because people who don't do it are smart. WhOOpPs.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Charbomber : oopsie poopsie

[Dubbag]

I like eggs...

[Charbomber]

6 minutes ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

I like eggs...

Alright there friend who also happened to post on my other wad because of a stupid glitch I failed to see because I only tested in zdoom thanks to the fact that I forgot zandronum only uses zdoom instead of GZDoom.

[Dubbag]

3 hours ago, Charbomber said:

Alright there friend who also happened to post on my other wad because of a stupid glitch I failed to see because I only tested in zdoom thanks to the fact that I forgot zandronum only uses zdoom instead of GZDoom.

Well that's your problem. I was just telling you.

[Charbomber]

1 minute ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

Well that's your problem. I was just telling you.

Thank you for telling me, because if you didn't, I wouldn't of been educated on the fact that one REALLY stupid flag for water breaks the water in GZDooM.

[Dubbag]

3 hours ago, Charbomber said:

Thank you for telling me, because if you didn't, I wouldn't of been educated on the fact that one REALLY stupid flag for water breaks the water in GZDooM.

ok. I didn't know that either. I don't do deepwater sectors. I just never got the hang of them. So you already know something I don't and I've been mapping for 15 years. So there you go man. You got something out of posting that map after all. The knowledge of how to do deepwater the right way.

[Cynical]

OP, play Mock 2. 

 

The problem with this "combination lock" style level is that it doesn't do anything particularly interesting or inspired with the engine.  There's no weird interactions, no unexpected gags/tricks (you shouldn't have given it away in the first post), no misdirections, and no stupidly tight execution.   There's just a maze of lines you can't see.  Yay.  It's not even close to the first game to have an invisible maze of insta-kill lines, Wizardry 4 did that decades ago.

 

Mock 2 has a lot of levels that do a much better job of this sort of thing (as well as a lot of levels that are just goofy thematically).  Stuff like that map with all of the irritating tiny lifts, or Mining Fecality (which knows exactly how far to take the joke, as well as throwing an unexpected twist on it a third of the way through), or even the "bridge" at the start of the very first stage its gag in the dark hallway are all more interesting examples of this genre.

[Loud Silence]

On 12/18/2019 at 7:13 AM, [Vitz!] said:

You know something is wrong when way too many people are giving attention to a random guy saying he made "wow super hard wad" while others post more serious content and get straight up ignored.

Community got bored with serious, good quality maps. Now people are going crazy for very poor WADs lol.