What is your most hated demon in Doom?

[cracky-bracky]

This is gonna sound fucking ridiculous but,

former humans/shotgunners when im on 14 HP

[Keyran-Solo]

I’ve been playing with fast monsters enabled recently, and the Chaingunners are INSANE. They’ll kill you in seconds!

 

I guess for regular DOOM, it has to be Arch-Viles and Pain Elementals.

 

If you don’t have berserk (or patience with the default fist), you can waste so much ammo killing those Lost Souls that come from Pain Elementals, which can be super annoying. 
 

With that said, I wouldn’t change a thing.

[LudicrousFPS]

Archviles and revenants. I have more trouble with them than chaingunners, which can actually be easily dispatched. 

[ReX]

I don't know if anyone has said this, but Commander Keen in Map32 of DooM2 was frustrating because, for the longest time, I did not realize I needed to shoot the vile creature!

[CyberHog]

Depends on the map, but the biggest "oh shit!" moment is usually when an unexpected Arch-Vile spawns in or ambushes you.

 

In general though, Pain Elementals. Can sometimes be more annoying than challenging.

Same with Barons, tankier Hell Knights and is often used as a literal meat wall.

 

If used right I don't hate any enemy, they all demand different strategies.

[NoFunAllowed]

I absolutely loath lost souls, even more than the pain elemental for some reason; when I see a pain elemental, I just think "oh there's a pain elemental I'll just kill that", when I see a lost soul I feel this low sinking feeling.

 

I theorise that its because the pain elemental is at least interesting (as are all the other doom 2 monsters)

Spoiler

also it looks like a happy meatball (this is actually the main reason I like it more)

 

[Cammy]

Barons, for being the absolute most boring enemy to fight. If I want to dodge fireballs, I'll fight Imps or Hell Knights, and if I want to dodge really strong fireballs while being scared, give me big guns and throw a Cyberdemon at me. Barons are just damage sinks and it's really difficult to use them right. The most interesting thing you can do is ambush the player with one or two Barons in an enclosed space, because their tankiness and low pain chance makes them really good at applying close-range pressure and scary when they're slowly closing in on you. Aside from that, not much can be done.

 

I also really really hate Specters, especially when they're put into dark spaces. What a dick move. Sorry, but making enemies harder to see isn't a real challenge. In literally any case where you can use a Specter, just use a Pinky instead. If you're Dehacking your wad and looking for enemies to replace, Specters should be first up on the chopping block after Nazis and Keen IMO.

[Blackroat]

5 hours ago, CammyBanana said:

Barons, for being the absolute most boring enemy to fight. If I want to dodge fireballs, I'll fight Imps or Hell Knights, and if I want to dodge really strong fireballs while being scared, give me big guns and throw a Cyberdemon at me. Barons are just damage sinks and it's really difficult to use them right. The most interesting thing you can do is ambush the player with one or two Barons in an enclosed space, because their tankiness and low pain chance makes them really good at applying close-range pressure and scary when they're slowly closing in on you. Aside from that, not much can be done.

 

I also really really hate Specters, especially when they're put into dark spaces. What a dick move. Sorry, but making enemies harder to see isn't a real challenge. In literally any case where you can use a Specter, just use a Pinky instead. If you're Dehacking your wad and looking for enemies to replace, Specters should be first up on the chopping block after Nazis and Keen IMO.

 

Barons are so easy to take care of (Slow monster mode) but Arch Viles are pain in the ass :D

 

Throw at me 150 barons instead of 15 Arch Viles . It is super easy to avoid their fires which may make it boring to you. While Barons are so easy, Arch Viles are quite opposite. So maybe we should have something in the middle, not so easy and not so difficult either :D

 

Play Episode 1 Map 9 in Heretic for Doom 2 megawad on the 4th difficulty and let's talk about Arch Viles :D

 

I managed to finish the map with saves but I died more than one thousand times. Did I have any fun? No.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Blackroat

[Stupid Bunny]

As far as mapping goes, archvile abuse and Baron abuse represent two opposite poles of bad level design.

 

In the case of the archvile, it's incredibly easy to make a completely unfair, even unwinnable encounter using only a few of them.  Even one can be make for a hopeless situation if there's no cover anywhere.  Shitty archvile use makes for maps that are the "unfair" kind of bad.

 

If one archvile in an open arena with no cover is unfair, than a baron in the same environment is also unfair...for the Baron, who just kind of futzes around in the middle while the player circlestrafes around him in no real danger at all.  Make it 10 barons and you already have a total fucking waste of time on your hands.  Bad Baron use, then, results in the "boring" kind of bad.

 

Archies and Barons come up constantly here, and it's probably a matter of whether one hates an unfair map or a boring one more.  Both enemies can be super fun to fight if used properly.

 

I guess lost souls and spectres are the third pole of being "annoying as shit"

[Blackroat]

15 hours ago, StupidBunny said:

As far as mapping goes, archvile abuse and Baron abuse represent two opposite poles of bad level design.

 

In the case of the archvile, it's incredibly easy to make a completely unfair, even unwinnable encounter using only a few of them.  Even one can be make for a hopeless situation if there's no cover anywhere.  Shitty archvile use makes for maps that are the "unfair" kind of bad.

 

If one archvile in an open arena with no cover is unfair, than a baron in the same environment is also unfair...for the Baron, who just kind of futzes around in the middle while the player circlestrafes around him in no real danger at all.  Make it 10 barons and you already have a total fucking waste of time on your hands.  Bad Baron use, then, results in the "boring" kind of bad.

 

Archies and Barons come up constantly here, and it's probably a matter of whether one hates an unfair map or a boring one more.  Both enemies can be super fun to fight if used properly.

 

I guess lost souls and spectres are the third pole of being "annoying as shit"

 

What is wrong with barons in an open area? Barons' attacks are not only so easy to avoid but also they move damn slow. Look at how fast Arch Viles move. They follow wherever you go once they see you. Even with a wall between, if there is 2 arch viles around, you are gone.

[Stupid Bunny]

1 hour ago, Blackroat said:

What is wrong with barons in an open area? Barons' attacks are not only so easy to avoid but also they move damn slow.

That’s exactly my point: they’re too easy to fight in such a situation. You can throw 5 or 10 or 1000 Barons into a big open arena and there will be no challenge in killing them, because all you have to do is orbit them forever shooting inwards until they’re all ground down. I have seen maps do this, and it is never difficult, but always super duper boring, tedious and redundant.

[NuMetalManiak]

Many times a monster is most hated depending on the situation the player is in or the challenge they are trying to do. For speedrunners, literally any monster that either gets in the way or manages to tag them at the worst opportunity at low health and/or a crucial moment would get merit. For max runners, the monsters that tend to have the highest HP when your resources are limited are more than likely to be hated (so cyberdemons, spiderdemons, and barons usually) due to them eating a lot of time and ammo. For Tyson players, naturally, anyone perched high and basically sniping since you could only hit them with pistol or maybe monster infighting (and even the latter can be problem if their infighter gets too close to even hit who they're after). For those avoiding damage as much as possible, hitscanners will of course take the cake. And so on.

[Blackroat]

2 hours ago, StupidBunny said:

That’s exactly my point: they’re too easy to fight in such a situation. You can throw 5 or 10 or 1000 Barons into a big open arena and there will be no challenge in killing them, because all you have to do is orbit them forever shooting inwards until they’re all ground down. I have seen maps do this, and it is never difficult, but always super duper boring, tedious and redundant.

 

Ahh, now I understand you. Yes.

[AmnesiaSilence]

chaingunners, archviles, pinkies

[Buzzerb5x9x]

pain elementals, chaingunners and archviles

they all suck, screw them

[tuturbo1991]

Archviles

[OliveTree]

there are plenty of times where im frustrated as hell by archviles and chaingunners and lost souls but there are also lots of times where their inclusion in a map makes me raise my eyebrows like "ohhh huh okay this is interesting then, how am i gonna go about this?" they can be really excellent tools in level design for creating unique challenging and forcing the player to act aggressively or just....DIFFERENTLY than they usually act.

 

pain elementals just suck though. i've literally never been surprised or impressed to see a pain elemental, just annoyed

[roadworx]

17 hours ago, EtherBot said:

there are plenty of times where im frustrated as hell by archviles and chaingunners and lost souls but there are also lots of times where their inclusion in a map makes me raise my eyebrows like "ohhh huh okay this is interesting then, how am i gonna go about this?" they can be really excellent tools in level design for creating unique challenging and forcing the player to act aggressively or just....DIFFERENTLY than they usually act.

 

pain elementals just suck though. i've literally never been surprised or impressed to see a pain elemental, just annoyed

i mean...pain elementals can be used just as well as all the others. it's just that really great usage of PEs is less obvious to the player than the others

[StrangerRanger]

Chaingunners of course. They are my highest priority kill target whenever I see one.

[OliveTree]

On 3/12/2021 at 2:41 AM, roadworx said:

i mean...pain elementals can be used just as well as all the others. it's just that really great usage of PEs is less obvious to the player than the others

I mean, yeah I'm sure it's theoretically possible that they CAN be really fun and surprising and innovatively implemented, I've just literally never played an example of that happening.

[roadworx]

15 minutes ago, EtherBot said:

I mean, yeah I'm sure it's theoretically possible that they CAN be really fun and surprising and innovatively implemented, I've just literally never played an example of that happening.

you probably have. they alone suck to fight, i will admit that, but when used in certain ways, they can add quite a bit to the dynamics of the encounter they're in.

 

the most common usage of them is as a number one priority for the player. as you know, if you don't kill the pain elemental, it'll spawn a shitload of lost souls and just be a stupid meatball fuck. so, if they're used in combination with various other enemies who're hurling projectiles and shooting at you, it presents an interesting challenge to the player. you have to kill the pe as quickly as possible while avoiding the attacks from the surrounding enemies.

 

think of it like this: killing the pe on its own isn't what makes it fun. what makes it fun is dodging the projectiles and running for cover while trying to kill it

[OliveTree]

Just now, roadworx said:

you probably have. they alone suck to fight, i will admit that, but when used in certain ways, they can add quite a bit to the dynamics of the encounter they're in.

 

the most common usage of them is as a number one priority for the player. as you know, if you don't kill the pain elemental, it'll spawn a shitload of lost souls and just be a stupid meatball fuck. so, if they're used in combination with various other enemies who're hurling projectiles and shooting at you, it presents an interesting challenge to the player. you have to kill the pe as quickly as possible while avoiding the attacks from the surrounding enemies.

 

think of it like this: killing the pe on its own isn't what makes it fun. what makes it fun is dodging the projectiles and running for cover while trying to kill it

I see what you mean and its encounters like this I'm thinking of when I'm trying to remember Pain Elementals in maps....but I don't like them even implemented like this. Its just a chore, imo.

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, EtherBot said:

I see what you mean and its encounters like this I'm thinking of when I'm trying to remember Pain Elementals in maps....but I don't like them even implemented like this. Its just a chore, imo.

i used to hate them in those situations as well until i started using the chaingun/plasmagun to stunlock them. idk if you already do that or not but it really helped me not have my fun completely ruined by them

[OliveTree]

6 minutes ago, roadworx said:

i used to hate them in those situations as well until i started using the chaingun/plasmagun to stunlock them. idk if you already do that or not but it really helped me not have my fun completely ruined by them

that is how i fight them lol its kind of the only viable way to do it, but again its just a chore, I personally don't enjoy doing that and it's sort of the only thing to do to avoid having tons of lost souls to clean up at the end. Thats why I tend to just groan when I see them, they aren't fun to fight on a basic mechanical level (imo). Poorly chosen amount of health, and everything I dislike about lost souls gets exacerbated with them

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, EtherBot said:

that is how i fight them lol its kind of the only viable way to do it, but again its just a chore, I personally don't enjoy doing that and it's sort of the only thing to do to avoid having tons of lost souls to clean up at the end. Thats why I tend to just groan when I see them, they aren't fun to fight on a basic mechanical level (imo). Poorly chosen amount of health, and everything I dislike about lost souls gets exacerbated with them

i don't mean to act like i'm trying to convince you of The Way of the Pain Elemental™ rn cuz that's how i feel like i'm coming across, but i personally use a dehacked patch that lowers the health of the lost soul just a tad. cuz i do agree with the people saying lost souls are awful, their health makes them a genuinely shitty enemy to fight. maybe you could try that?

[OliveTree]

15 minutes ago, roadworx said:

i don't mean to act like i'm trying to convince you of The Way of the Pain Elemental™ rn cuz that's how i feel like i'm coming across, but i personally use a dehacked patch that lowers the health of the lost soul just a tad. cuz i do agree with the people saying lost souls are awful, their health makes them a genuinely shitty enemy to fight. maybe you could try that?

could you link the patch?

 

[roadworx]

9 hours ago, EtherBot said:

could you link the patch?

 

sure

 

lshealth.rar

[SF.]

Do spectres really serve any purpose other than annoying the shit out of players? In well lit areas, they are no different to pinkies. Putting them in dark areas where the player can't see them feels a bit cheap to me. 

[Z.Franz]

Honestly, as much as I hate Revenants, I'll have to go with the Mancubus. If all you have is the shotgun, you are forced to shoot them when they ready their weapons to stun them, or you will have to dodge attacks specifically coded to be hard to dodge.

 

On the other hand, I guess I'm the only one that loves the original Icon Of Sin bossfight...

[floatRand]

Spectres and Pain Elemental/Lost Souls. Spectres are just demon, except with annoying visual screw that kills you with your own rockets. 

Lost Souls have bit too high hp for my tastes and Pain Elemental is just kinda annoying high-priority enemy because how it pollutes movement space with infinitely tall hitboxes. 

 

And I am surprised people hate archviles. They are IMO best designed monster in Doom 2 in general.