Plutonia Revisited Community Project: Released!

[Kira]

dew said:

map12:
optional: flag horizon lines in south and northeast as hidden for better automap effect? //dew

Good suggestion! I'll do that today with a little fix for the thing 273 which is stuck in ZDoom.

[Joshy]

Mista_T said:

So far, the reported bugs in my maps seem minor enough to let Joshy or somebody to fix.

I'm happy to fix them for you. I've also fixed Map03 and Map22. Hopefully I haven't missed anything.

[Keeper of Jericho]

Xaser said:

MAP05: That Flooded Place
* Haha, the blue key surprised me... no trap? :P

Is this really necesary after fighting off 6 Revenants on UV when you flip the switch that opens the door? I think the player deserves a bit of a breather.

Xaser said:

MAP05: That Flooded Place
* Hmm... the red, too. Bit of a quiet finish..?

After fighting off two Arch-Viles for lowering the red key, I don't think more battles for the key are really necesary. But that's my view on it.

Xaser said:

MAP05: That Flooded Place
+ I like how open-ended the layout is. Not having a single path is a plus in my eyes.

I tried my best to be original with this, glad to see it paid off. =)

Xaser said:

MAP05: That Flooded Place
- The mancubi near the SSG are a bit dull to fight -- easy to dodge + only shotgun&chaingun for attack = meat shield plowing, which isn't so fun. Perhaps replace them with revvies.

This fight goes much better if the player discovers the secret SSG in the room with all the imps + revenant. I think encouraging the player to find secrets for situations like these is not a bad thing. But that's just my opinion. ;)

[WH-Wilou84]

Keeper of Jericho said:

Is this really necesary after fighting off 6 Revenants on UV when you flip the switch that opens the door? I think the player deserves a bit of a breather.

The said "breather" could take the form of a quick chaingunner duo for example, it would still make things interesting :)
This is Plutonia man, run and gun, rip and tear :p

Map 30 : Are you guys sure that the map is doable in UV Max ?
Killing those Cybers up in towers might be problematic, or maybe I'm missing something obvious.
Really good map though, and a fitting ending to this great megawad for sure ;)

[dew]

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
This is Plutonia man, run and gun, rip and tear :p

x-actly. you should grab the BK long before you're done with the revs, chainer reinforcements would probably just infight with them and further ease the job. this way you still have a bunch of revs on your tail. :)
and the RK fight is much more exciting the second time you play it - once you know the best tactic is killing the barons for the last.

Map 30 : Are you guys sure that the map is doable in UV Max ?
Killing those Cybers up in towers might be problematic, or maybe I'm missing something obvious.

it's not that obvious. let's just say the spider guards the number of the beast. :p

[Keeper of Jericho]

[WH]-Wilou84 said:

The said "breather" could take the form of a quick chaingunner duo for example, it would still make things interesting :)
This is Plutonia man, run and gun, rip and tear :p

Fair enough, but it's Plutonia, like you said, not Hell Revealed. :p

[WH-Wilou84]

dew said:

it's not that obvious. let's just say the spider guards the number of the beast. :p

Oh, haha. Clever. :)
I stand corrected then.

Edit : I'll take care of my maps if bugs are found, no problem.

[Mechadon]

I got up to MAP15 last night and I haven't ran into anymore bugs (atleast none that haven't already been reported). MAP11 was really awesome too, I enjoyed the hell out of it :)

[darkreaver]

BLAAAARH!!!! TEST FASTER!!!! I WANT!

[Xaser]

I'M GOING AS FAST AS I CAN GEEZ

*ahem*, I mean, had time today to play through another map right quick...


MAP12: Velocity
- The monster placement so far is not very play-friendly at all -- they block your every move. The gameplay in the cyberdemon room in particular grinds to a screeching halt thanks to the revenants on the platforms. By the time they're gone, the pain elementals have filled the place to the rim with Lost Souls, making the platforms impossible to traverse quickly enough to not get cybered...
- The outdoor trap with the spidey+revs+archvile can easily be spoiled in vanilla by reloading a savegame right before triggering the trap. It'd probably be a good idea to make it so firing outside will cause the enemies to be awakened again, so this can't be skipped. I think I noticed this problem once or twice in other maps, too, but I couldn't be sure until now.
- You might want to consider blocking the path to the exit for a short while as well. Not only does it allow one to skip the fight entirely, but it provides a cheap corridor to funnel monsters into and take out one at a time, spoiling all the fun.
+ Aside from that, though, I did really like that scene. ;)
Overall: A lot slower-paced than its predecessor, it feels like, which is mostly due to the monster-clogging. The second half of the map (post-cyberdemons) worked really well, though, and the style was certainly a fitting homage. I certainly wouldn't say it's a bad map -- just needs some improvement is all.


Also, if any authors want me to elaborate on any of the points I bring up, I'll be happy to. These lists are written down while playing and are a bit rough and without line numbers or anything useful yet.

More to come soon. I am seriously cursing my schedule at being crammed enough to prevent me from playing this all through at once. :P


[EDIT] Well, I do have enough time to make a quick-ish response. ;)

@Keeper of Jericho: The thing that got me was that I managed to play the map such that there was almost no resistance at all when getting the final two keys. I suppose it's a lot more hectic if you do everything at once, but it seemed more natural to me to clear out the map first. It's not really a big deal, though, and I understand where you're coming from about giving the player a break. The more pressing issue, I'd say, are the wooden columns in the narrow hallways. Some impassible lines between them could really give the flow a boost, I'd imagine.

[TendaMonsta]

I can't really find much that hasn't already been posted.

Although MAP31 -You can get rid of the numerous health packs or replace some of them with stimpacks.(nitpicky)

I'm more than half way through testing this wad so my full opinion should come by Monday (I hope)

Also may I record one demo for this wad particularly MAP06?

[Joshy]

Go ahead TendaMonsta :)

[Whoo]

dew said:

map31:
this is still the beta version of the map... anyways...
critical: EE room contains secrets
critical: DM area contains secrets
critical: not pressing linedef 801 and running over the wall traps player forever
critical: linedef 734 needs some sort of opening action, player is trapped
gameplay: no multiplayer monsters

Other than the multiplayer monsters and linedefs 734 and 801 those have been fixed for quite some time now.

[Phobus]

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Map 14 : I like this map a lot, it's quite brutal and furious, but it seems to me that the huge fights at the Plasma Gun area are too easy to bypass. You just have to run straight to the teleporter in front of you. Kinda like what you get at the end of HR map 20, it's almost useless.
A suggestion would be to have those red and grey teleporters up on fast lifts, with switches nearby, so that it's actually a bit dangerous trying to escape. Surely it would slow down the speed route, but not by that much.
As it is, imho the player will never stay in the area and fight, unless he's doing a max demo.
What do you think, Phobus & testers ?

Ooops, totally overlooked this back when I first should have read it... Good thing I was going back to see how Xaser's bugtesting was going!

Anyway, I personally wanted that to be part of the main map as a while, but testers found it was really bad for visplanes, etc. So I did a full remake of the map and moved that aside. I never really wanted to trap the players in the fight, which is why I left it as an open escape. Movement is the player's greatest defense afterall! I tend to stand and fight myself, as its a fairly safe battle most of the time - IMO it should be left as is, but if there's sufficient pressure, then implementing your suggestion does sound like a good compromise, even if it adds more cover. My main quibble with that suggestion is that the teleporters would also then by even harder to tell apart, thus leading the player the wrong way more often, which would prove frustrating, I'm sure. However, I could get around this by altering the aesthetics of the teleports themselves to be more obviously colour coded.

Glad you enjoyed the map, I was quite concerned I'd be no good at Plutonia mapping :)

[TendaMonsta]

Demo for the wad. It's a casual quick run of MAP06 only showing part of the map and near death moments which is what I wanted.

This isn't a speedrun or anything major. I just wanted to create a demo showing off the level, its fights and traps, design and some good ol doom. Hopefully I achieved that in this demo.

So far I've tested more than half the maps and I found a VPO on Helix Xaser. On Sector 281 turn to your right (if you are facing the switch)


Quick question about testing. Should I be looking for VPOs for Vanilla or just Chocolate Doom since Vanilla was 128 and Chocolate added more Visplanes

THIS DEMO DESYNCS FOR SOME REASON IN CHOCOLATE DOOM DON'T USE IT

[MTrop]

I don't think Chocolate added more visplanes. I thought that was just Chocorenderlimits so that it didn't crash when it would find a potential overflow.

[C30N9]

Pitfalls is uploaded:

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=16353

[Xaser]

Mista_T said:

I don't think Chocolate added more visplanes. I thought that was just Chocorenderlimits so that it didn't crash when it would find a potential overflow.

This is true. Regular Chocolate's limits are identical to vanilla's.


Another round of feedbackness:


MAP13: Slaughter Zone
- A personal peeve, but I don't really like having monsters that see you right at map start. In retrospect, MAP11 was guilty of this as well. :P
Overall: Hehe, few words on this one... but that's a good thing. Short, simple, and to the point, this one was. The point being "fun as hell," of course. It's not exactly pretty, but it doesn't need to be. ;)

MAP14: Undertaker
- The insides of the startroom's Revenant chambers have the doors flagged upper-unpegged, which looks a bit odd as the door "melts" through the brick. Not that it bugs me much (somehow I like the effect), but it does look a bit strange to most. Nitpicks, once more. :P
+ I love how most of the challenge in the first fight lies in maneuvering yourself to use the rocket launcher properly -- the greatest danger is your own explosions. Props for that. ;)
Overall: Really liked this one, I did. It was just the perfect size, the traps were seet up very well, and the surprise teleport fight was intense as hell -- though I do agree that maybe it's a good idea to trap the player in that area a little longer so they can't just run through. Top notch work, I say :)

MAP15: Helix
* Who's the crazyface who made this carp? :P

[C30N9]

Xaser said:

MAP15: Helix
* Who's the crazyface who made this carp? :P

I didn't like his map! I like your maps than his maps =P

[Xaser]

C30N9 said:

I didn't like his map! I like your maps than his maps =P

I fervently agree with this statement. I could totally make a better Helix map than he did.


:P

[TendaMonsta]

Small report:

MAP01 - Seg overflow sector 79 while looking towards rocky scenery. a couple HOMs here and there actually. Nice start to the project. It reminds me much of the first level.

MAP02 - Ammo shortage can make the map a little boring. I understand that is what the Berserk is for but it can become quite tedious in cramped spaces. Overall design was nice and monster placement nice.

MAP03 - Big ass bug in the end that doesn't allow exit.

MAP04 - Cyberdemon already? Layout is quite odd and this map needs some work.

MAP05 - Already sent feedback a long time ago.

MAP06 - Sexy. Didn't really find any bugs so lets move on.

MAP07 - According to chocorenderlimits an HOM appears at the start if you back-up. Nice idea having the player kill the cyberdemon so the other mancubi teleport in.

MAP08 - Not done testing

MAP09 - Redkey ending had a few HOM spots, and the music doesn't fit

MAP10 - Soulsphere secret causes HOM, too much ammo?

MAP11 - Not done testing

MAP12 - Tested a while back

MAP13 - Not done testing

MAP14 - This map grew on me. At first I hated it due to the beginning with all the Revenants, but then I realized how easy it is to clear them out. Fight with the Cyberdemon can be skipped (as said in previous posts)

MAP15 - Not done testing

MAP16 - I didn't find any bugs. I have nothing to complain about except the last battle... It was awesome especially with the teleporting Mastermind as boss.

MAP17 - tested a while back

MAP18 - Ugh...This is going to be annoying once I test it I can see it right now. Trip with -nomonsters and I have to say really nice layout Evocalvin. I wonder if the monster placement can stack up to the level design.

MAP19 - Haven't tested it yet

MAP20 - tested a while back

MAP21 - tested a while back

MAP22 - tested a while back

MAP23 - tested a while back

MAP24 - So far not bad. A bit odd with the water texture here and there but it does remind me of Plutonia. So far I only dislike the trio of Archvile that can pick you off from far away or viceversa.

MAP25 - Haven't tested

MAP26 - Goddamnit Joshy why must you torment me!:)

MAP27 - tested a while back

MAP28 - So far no bugs that I see

MAP29 - Too long for me to test (I'm kidding)

MAP30 - Haven't tested

MAP31 - I like this level a lot for some reason. (Maybe because there is a BFG and Cyberdemons). I still think some of the medkits can be changed to stimpacks though(nitpicky I know). Has a few HOM according to Chocorenderlimits

MAP32 - WTF Will this torment end. I think I'm done, but no...more goddamn monsters. So far I love it...Reminds me of TNT MAP01 (that's what it's supposed to be I'm assuming). Disappearing sprites may become an issue. MIDI doesn't play in Chocolate-Doom

Actually big ass report

[PRIMEVAL]

Gah! That blasted MIDI of mine >.<

[Phobus]

Well - my maps going down a lot better than I expected :)

[Xaser]

A bit more...


MAP31: Cyberdemon Vertigo
- The usual automap complaint stands here. I notice the use of 0-height sectors to assign two textures to a line, but none of them (that I've seen) have the 'secret' flag checked so it doesn't appear as a standard wall on the 'map. The lines around the starting area should probably be flagged 'secret' so as to not spoil the location. A couple of hidden doors are missing them as well. The staircase trap was spoiled entirely for the same reasons -- brown lines everywhere! There's also a big red box bounding the secret exit room -- perhaps just mark it all hidden?
- The music dosn't fit the map at all, I don't think.
Overall: Automap/music complaints aside, this was a fun little map. Much different than the usual execution -- small amounts of powerful monsters -- offered a fun BFG romp without being overly difficult. Texturing was maybe a bit odd in spots, but still good as a whole.

MAP32: Have @ It
- Another before-mentioned thing: the music for this map won't convert from MIDI, and it unfortunately comes out as silence in Chocolate otherwise. :(
- Automap lines! The doors are spoiled!
+ Hahaha, I recognize this layout... :P
* Hehe, this map could probably be subtitled "Don't open that door!" -- first an entire horde of revenants, then a cyberdemon crotch? Oh dear!
- There is FAR too little health in this map. I get that the idea is to be difficult, but the central courtyard has been completely dry of health for a while now and there are still two more switches to be hit... geeze!
- Yep. The fake exit was completely spoiled by the automap -- mark those lines as secret.
Overall: To be fair, I'm not sure if I can really comment much on this one. I guess slaughtermaps just aren't my cup of tea, but I found this one far more frustrating than fun (and if it's anything to go by, I muchly enjoyed both PL MAP32 and PL2 MAP32). But whatever -- it's certainly hard, and I guess it fulfills that end of the deal well.

[hawkwind]

Here's my full report. Some things previously mentioned ...

map 01 ...

Line 2103 needs the double-sided flag removed.

map 02 ...

1. Not a bug per-se but note the different ceilings at sectors 116 compared to sector 105.
2. Lines 481-483 could be flagged "hidden".

map 03 ...

A-RAIL1 could do with a tidy-up x alignment on sector 41, 46 etc sides.

map 05 ...

FIRELAV2 not animating. Intenional? Use FIRELAVa to animate.

map 08 ...

1. There is a problem with the floor motion of sector 55. Note the linetypes for lines 608 and 964 - WR floor lower to lower floor. Now also note that sector 210 has a floor level of -8, whereas sector 24 has a floor level of 0. If in normal play the player crosses line 608 at least twice, sector 55 will lower from a floor level of 0 to -8, revealing missing textures on the back-side of lines 125, 111 etc. The problem will show itself these ways, assuming floor sector 55 is now at a level of -8 ...

a. Using either gzdoom or glboom+, walk backwards and forwards over line 686, facing west. A flash of sky is noted at line 125.
b. The player will see a slight "floor movement" at lines 125, 111 etc.
c. The player will notice the change in floor height when moving from sector 55 to 24 - a rise of 8.
d. Note the lower-front side of line 362. A-VINE3 is used. You will clearly see the error of point b by looking either side of this line from sector 55's side.

Two fixes come to mind ...

a. Give the lower-back of lines 119, 110, 103, 355, 438, 114, 113, 125, 111, 104 and 441 the texture A_VINE3.
b.Split sector 210 into two sectors, north/south lengthwise, and giving the new sector on the left/west a floor height of 0.

2. Sector 11 should do damage the same as sector 152 - BLOOD.

map 09 ...

A-VINE1 at lines 4622 and 4625 bleed into the floor with software ports. Give sectors 961 and 962 a floor brightness level of 159 to fix.

map 10 ...

1. Sectors 6 and 39 not closed. This is caused by line 241 not merged with vertex 169.
2. While line 919 is 2 map units away from the wall, it could be made so as to be only 1 map unit away from the wall.
3. Linetype and tag can now be removed from lines 864-867 since it is covered by line 1486.

map 11 ...

A-RAIL! 1 on either sides of lines 5561 and 2662 render at different heights.

map 12 ...

1. It is possible to knock the teleported revenants at sectors 172-174 off their platforms into sector 48, preventing 100% kills. I suggest making all the lines around the 3 platforms be flagged "block monster".

2. Line 651 could do with a slight Y alignment.

map 13 ...

The arrow sector 127 can hardly be seen, with a light level difference of just 8.

map 15 ...

1. Sector 524 has a teleport Thing and is tagged 47 but no corresponding linedef tag.
2. The torch at sector 594 looked too cramped. Sector height of 64 is not enough.
3. Lower tex on line 3658 needs a Y alignment.
4. Remove the mid textures from lines 5878 and 5877. They can be seen when looking up.
5. Remove tag from sector 755.

map 31 ...

showstopper ...

If the player crosses line 1727 but does not activate line 801, straferuns to rising sector 285 and teleports at sector 185, the player will find that they cannot exit to level 16. To fix give line 799 linetype/action 82, tag it number 34, and change the tag number of sectors 291 and 290 to 34. While at it flip lines 1283-1286.

map 17 ...

1. Remove double-sided flag on line 2390.
2. Flip lines 3485/3496/3125/3097.

map 18 ...

Lines 1632/3787 missing mid textures.

map 19 ...

All the lines linking sector 794, not just some, could have been flagged "hidden".

map 21 ...

The archie is too easy to kill at sector 7, when sector 11 is still closed. Just punch him to death.

map 22 ...

Sector might have looked better if it had a lower floor height to start off with. ATM the player can see the HK's heads.

map 24 ...

Player 2 has an advantage over other players. Line 36 does not have a mid texture. Check lines 61, 4 and 87.

map 25 ...

1. The red skullkey can still be picked up, even when sector 418 has lowered. The player just has to bump against line 2206. This makes getting the red skullkey at sector 357 superfluous, and makes for a quicker exit of level. Moving the key further away from line 2206 might help.
2. Sector 676 is tagged and has a teleport Thing but no corresponding line tag number.

map 27 ...

Still not a fan of sectors 273 and 275 to get the secret ...

map 29 ...

1. Revenants at sector 166 have their heads rendered into the ceiling ( cut off ) in opengl ports.
2. Unless I'm missing something ( like an archvile ? ) it appears impossible to get to secret sectors 494 and 408.

That's all ... I think ...

[PRIMEVAL]

Xaser said:

MAP32: Have @ It
- Another before-mentioned thing: the music for this map won't convert from MIDI, and it unfortunately comes out as silence in Chocolate otherwise. :(

Sigh, I gotta find a way to fix that bloody thing...

[TendaMonsta]

hawkwind said:

Here's my full report. Some things previously mentioned ...

1. It is possible to knock the teleported revenants at sectors 172-174 off their platforms into sector 48, preventing 100% kills. I suggest making all the lines around the 3 platforms be flagged "block monster".

Thats strange. I thought vanilla doom prevented monsters from falling off of ledges.

[MTrop]

It does, but they should still be made port-friendly whenever possible. I did the same for CC3 MAP29 to keep a cyberdemon on a ledge, and that had to at least be Boom compatible.

[Joshy]

PRIMEVAL said:

Sigh, I gotta find a way to fix that bloody thing...

I wouldn't worry too much about it mate, it's quite a rocking tune, I'd hate to see (or hear :P) it gone.

[WH-Wilou84]

@ Xaser : Thanks for testing my lil' map 32. :)
A pity you didn't like it much though, as you were the one insisting on the name change. :p
I must say I liked both your maps very much, they're among my favorites in this pack, by far.

Now on your comments :
* Music not working under vanilla, well, it sucks but as Joshy said it will probably stay that way. I suggest vanilla and Chocolate Doom users just type in either "idmus07" or "idmus11", those tunes could fit in quite well. :)
* Badly-marked lines spoiling everything : noted. I'll see what I can do about that.
* Not enough health ? Well it seemed okay ( and even too generous sometimes ) for everyone else so far, but I can still add a few health packs here and there, for sure.
Still, this map was designed to be quite hard, and with not as many Megaspheres as in pl32 and pl232. Blue armors are usually just what you should need, so that you could take a few hits but a rocket in the face should mean "game over" to you. I can't make things too easy, players need to suffer, cry and curse a bit. :)
Just think about how many kids were traumatized by Go 2 It. Let's retry this experiment here.
And we must live up to Joshy's insane difficulty standards :p

Also, unlike in pl32, skill levels are implemented for all the family.

Nevertheless, thanks again for your time and your comments :)
I'll send an updated version of map 32 to Joshy soon.