The /newstuff Chronicles #377

The Ultimate DooMer said:
I've played plenty of them over the past 15 years though, and I don't see that many sticking out nowadays in terms of gameplay that differs from normal. Concept stuff like 1024, 1monster, Reality Maps etc. as well as non-standard stuff like Bicycle Mystery 2, Doom 2 Reloaded etc. is nice when it comes out as is a good hard wad of any size (which I'm always partial to) but a lot of the time it just seems like the same old stuff...which to me is fine once in a while (like those E2/TNT tributes I played earlier this year) but gets a bit boring after that.

The people you are mostly responding to don't seem to think this "same old" is boring, by and large, and seem to derive a lot of fun and usage from it. Is it bullshit that we aren't necessarily playing another thousand games that could greatly expand our experiences in genres and aesthetic styles? You have a load of experience, have done and played many things, but nowadays see things from a "ZDoom perspective" or with certain priorities.

Also, some of the guys may not see some of the things you see in custom monsters, which are valid from your point of view, yet they have to weigh what they add against other aspects they value greatly, such as the classic simplicity of the game or demo recording, that are more or less incompatible with these custom monsters.

yeah, i'm not sure using my post as an example was the best way to promote TUD's goals. he knows well i'm not such a hc purist... wsnakes and all. :)

John Smith said:

Looks to me like I wagered correctly. Both your awards were wads from a ZDoom derivative port.

Not really as I had 3 slots originally, then Epic 2 came out and I didn't have time to play it before the deadline. As I don't want to give awards out to wads I've not played (regardless of what it is or who made it) and the fact that my 3rd choice was one of six wads that were close together (as opposed to a standout wad), I gave the slot up to let Scuba decide.

I don't see much of an issue with the wad being for ZDoom or ZDoom related stuff. But from the screenshots, i just don't see anything very original. The screenshots show textures from the Heretic Treasure Chest pack, 'new' monsters that I've seen and fought before. The only thing really new and original (which is the only parts of a wad i really care about) is the mapping.

The first screenshot looks okay with the exception of the sky being a different color than the fog. Youd think that the clouds, being hundreds of miles in the sky would probably be affected by the same whiteness of fog that affects the castle thats 15 feet in front of the player. The second screenshot features a very blocky room with an extreme color theme accented with some "because i can" slope usage.

I know I'm going strictly by looks which is a controversial way to review anything, but what I'm seeing is a wad that features more content made by people other than Zalewa. (To be fair he modified some of the decorate but that doesn't feel very monumental to me) With many ZDoom wads, i see much of the same content getting used and reused over and over, with less and less original resources from person who made the project. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would want to make a project that utilizes new textures, monsters and weapons without wanting to make them themselves. In fact I'd be way more impressed if the new monsters were just imp recolors that Zalewa created himself. It's like these things are used to cover up that any original stuff they can put out won't shine among the rest of the doom wads unless it uses more stuff to make it unique and special.

Also I don't really see how what you just said counters John Smith's raw evidence.

40oz, that's what you call a "zdoom syndrome".

Which means that people use new monsters and weapons but they don't add anything to the general experience.

Sadly it's spread nearly all around zdoom wads because people use free resources for the hell of it without thinking if it does contribute anything except "wow it's a new item!".

So to avoid this zdoom syndrome and your wad being called average right away. It's best to make those new weapons/monsters yourself even if they are a bunch of recolors and MAKE SURE they fit into the maps, gameplay and ACTUALLY contribute to the general experience.

Same with new textures.

I generally enjoy playing ZDoomy wads over Boom wads, there I said it. I think they are more fun if done right. However I can respect that even though I got tired of Doom's gameplay there's a huge group that still loves it. It honestly isn't that hard to not shove your ideas down the throats of others.

So-called "ZDoom syndrome" is ultimately a matter of opinion, much like everything else. I'm a ZDoom fan, but my two favourite WADs this year were both for Boom. Go figure.

All ports have something to bring to the table, and frankly I'm tired of all of the factional bullshit I see day-in-day-out on these and other boards. We are all here for the same reason, and there will always be gold and shite no matter what the port. Can't we all just get along?

I enjoy wads that require me to think. Unfortunately, there's not very many of those.

kristus said:

I enjoy wads that require me to think. Unfortunately, there's not very many of those.

Sounds like my ambitious next project: A WAD where every time you kill an enemy, a dossier pops up on screen detailing their life and accomplishments. And you killed them. Criminal scum.

Like in Austin Powers whenever a minion is killed ...

(thinks for a moment)

... WIN.

Mr. Freeze said:

Sounds like my ambitious next project: A WAD where every time you kill an enemy, a dossier pops up on screen detailing their life and accomplishments. And you killed them. Criminal scum.

Name: Imp #234233
Occupation: Accountant
Likes: Killing marines, stealing souls, creating hellspawn and long walks on the beach
Dislikes: Marines, humans, the UAC, Earth, and Hugh Grant movies
Cause of death: Criminal scum...


...I know, I suck. <(

Exactly. And it's all a baby step towards my ultimate project:

Postmodern Doom. If you die in the game you die for real, and there will be a bisexual water-walking vampire as well as a reveal that the villains have been dead for a hundred years!

Coming 2014.

40oz said:

The screenshots show textures from the Heretic Treasure Chest pack, 'new' monsters that I've seen and fought before. The only thing really new and original (which is the only parts of a wad i really care about) is the mapping.

i see much of the same content getting used and reused over and over, with less and less original resources from person who made the project. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would want to make a project that utilizes new textures, monsters and weapons without wanting to make them themselves.

Not everyone (myself included) has the time, skill or resources to make new textures and monster sprites, yet should these people be limited to using only the stock Doom/Doom 2 textures and monsters? Especially when there may already be existing resources similar or identical to what the author envisioned being in his project.

Foodles said:

Not everyone (myself included) has the time, skill or resources to make new textures and monster sprites, yet should these people be limited to using only the stock Doom/Doom 2 textures and monsters? Especially when there may already be existing resources similar or identical to what the author envisioned being in his project.

I hate to sound like a dick, but that really isn't our problem. Our role is to play the project and post our thoughts if we feel like it. If people think it's repetitive, then the author's role is to make it less repetitive. Cruel, yes. Unfair, yes. But if the author is getting his or her hands messy with all kinds of new elements, then the author better make sure they work.

Mr. Freeze said:

Sounds like my ambitious next project: A WAD where every time you kill an enemy, a dossier pops up on screen detailing their life and accomplishments. And you killed them. Criminal scum.

No it doesn't.

Foodles said:

Not everyone (myself included) has the time, skill or resources to make new textures and monster sprites, yet should these people be limited to using only the stock Doom/Doom 2 textures and monsters? Especially when there may already be existing resources similar or identical to what the author envisioned being in his project.

People won't lower their standards on your behalf.

kristus said:

No it doesn't.

Yes it does. If it doesn't make you think you are obviously a western fascist imperialist, concerned only with killing and pillaging. Don't act so doubleplusungood.

Stop trolling, you're not good at it.

scalliano said:

All ports have something to bring to the table, and frankly I'm tired of all of the factional bullshit I see day-in-day-out on these and other boards. We are all here for the same reason, and there will always be gold and shite no matter what the port.

I tend to sidestep and try to ignore the "factional bullshit" as far as possible. Everyone develops a preferred playing style and learns to love/loathe specific port features - that I can live with - it's when a player's passion for aspects of the game and/or their preferred port starts veering towards zealotry that I start asking myself "WTF?".

Can't we all just get along?

NO! Your family is obese, and your personal hygiene is questionable! :P

GreyGhost said:

I tend to sidestep and try to ignore the "factional bullshit" as far as possible. Everyone develops a preferred playing style and learns to love/loathe specific port features - that I can live with - it's when a player's passion for aspects of the game and/or their preferred port starts veering towards zealotry that I start asking myself "WTF?".

You're not wrong - I've tried to diffuse arguments in the past without success.

NO! Your family is obese, and your personal hygiene is questionable! :P

And what? Your ma's so fat that when she was at school they had to take her class photo from a helicopter. :D

(sorry, couldn't let that one go :P)

Mr. Freeze said:

killing and pillaging.

Yar, we vikings must stick together! Rape and Pillage 10,000 villages until our message is out there! No new taxes on axes!

Foodles said:

Not everyone (myself included) has the time, skill or resources to make new textures and monster sprites, yet should these people be limited to using only the stock Doom/Doom 2 textures and monsters? Especially when there may already be existing resources similar or identical to what the author envisioned being in his project.

This argument comes up every time I bring this up, and I'm surprised my response hasn't spread virally to everywhere by now. Your hobbies have no reason to be pressed for time, and if you are uninterested in making your own textures and sprites, then you should collaborate with someone who is capable of doing that for you.

You obviously have plenty of time to research all the resources you're willing to rip, I don't see how cutting the middleman and just asking someone to create the content for you is more time consuming than that. If you are unable to find anyone willing to do it for you, you either:

a.) Haven't done enough to earn the respect of your fellow Doom community members.

b.) You're project presents itself in which the time and effort used to make the parts that you've done is not by any means equal to the amount of time and effort used to make the additional content you desire.

Think about that.

scalliano said:
All ports have something to bring to the table,

Well, good thing there are many tables. The middle-ground guys can also come out as a sort of exclusive club when they try to tell others that everything has something to give. Growing tired of arguments is already a sign of a lack of tolerance :p

Often the arguments need to be resolved between the extremes, although the guys in the middle of the road can also contribute their share, especially when they don't necessarily think chosen extremes should be diminished. Political abuses can be questioned, but not the extreme choices themselves.

There's a place for all preferences here, as long as we respect each others' choices to a decent enough degree (no point expecting too much harmony, either.) Extremes can also get along because once they understand that the other extreme is in a similar situation, the golden rule and empathy start to make sense.

Keep in mind also that being able to do a variety of things or liking many things is a limitation too, because such a viewpoint fails to value what someone with a more strict or particular perspective appreciates, at least to a large degree. Extremism, held together by passion that some may call zealotry, is often a form of specialization that allows people to do or create great things.

myk said:

Well, good thing there are many tables.

What the hell does that even mean?

myk said:

Extremism, held together by passion that some may call zealotry, is often a form of specialization that allows people to do or create great things.

I can't agree with that. Do you have any example? If I look at this community's creations, I don't see anything great that was created by zealous extremists.

Gez said:
What the hell does that even mean?

People doing and enjoying things that are largely exclusive. We are free to join different tables and don't all have to be on the same one. This lets us all develop our preferences, possibly passing by each others' tables to have a chat or even sit by for a while.

Do you have any example? If I look at this community's creations, I don't see anything great that was created by zealous extremists.

You're tying the question to disparaging terms which I just criticized. I mean people that are monolithically tied to certain activities in the community, hold strong passions for them and don't give a rat's ass about other considerations. Take Donner as a speed runner and mapper, or Ralphis taking DOOM in the sports direction. Maybe Lil' White Mouse as a TC extremist or... you as a source code and mod extremist that has nothing to do with the competitive aspect of the game. Stuff like that.

I think Scalliano meant the table as a metaphor for the Doom community. It's not that strongly fragmented. Even ZDaemoners seem to come around here more frequently now than a few years ago. I'd see it better as people on different corners of a large table than on completely separate tables. The various ports and mods would be the meals and drinks.

I don't see any of your examples as extremists. Having a preference for one aspect in particular doesn't make one an extremist. I don't remember reading Ralphis saying everyone should play Doom like it were a sport, or LWM saying that mods that aren't TCs suck. The lack of personal interest in something doesn't mean not caring about it at all.

Gez said:
It's not that strongly fragmented.

Language is relative. I was reminding scalliano of the importance of considering and valuing what fragmentation there is because he and GreyGhost were dismissing extremists arguing among each other in a rather generic and wholesale way.

I don't see any of your examples as extremists. Having a preference for one aspect in particular doesn't make one an extremist. I don't remember reading Ralphis saying everyone should play Doom like it were a sport, or LWM saying that mods that aren't TCs suck. The lack of personal interest in something doesn't mean not caring about it at all.

I fail to see how extremist has to imply forcing one's own views on others. First and foremost it's about preferring and sticking to some extreme in whatever discipline or activity. "Not caring" about other things and ignoring them completely seem to go together very well, too. The insecure extremist attacks other extremes or those outside his extreme whereas the extremist that is content and proud of his choices simply tends to stay away from the things not included in his specialized choice, because his hands are full with what he likes.

Yeah, it was Extremist in the most literal sense, not about Nazis patrolling and making crap maps.

myk said:

I fail to see how extremist has to imply forcing one's own views on others.

And inversely, forcing one's views on others is my yardstick to define what an extremist is. Being interested by something is not extreme. Are the forumgoers here Doom extremists if they aren't in a Call of Duty clan/guild/whatever? The extremist is the one that makes the step from "this is what I like" to "my way is the One True Way".

Do you have any example? If I look at this community's creations, I don't see anything great that was created by zealous extremists.

Scroll a few posts up, look at 40oz trying to force his views on custom textures, just like he does on a thousand different topics. UACUltra is pretty damn great if you ask me.

For that matter, just take a look in the mirror. You're rather zealotic against anyone who doesn't spend his life learning about computers, programming and editing wikis, yet you've contributed to great things such as SLADE3.

myk said:

I mean people that are monolithically tied to certain activities in the community, hold strong passions for them and don't give a rat's ass about other considerations. Take Donner as a speed runner and mapper, or Ralphis taking DOOM in the sports direction. Maybe Lil' White Mouse as a TC extremist or... you[/b] {addressing Gez} [b]as a source code and mod extremist that has nothing to do with the competitive aspect of the game. Stuff like that.

Are they extremists, specialists, niche occupants or something else? There's room for all of them in the community (which would stagnate if we all occupied the middle ground) just as there needs to be room for conflicting points of view - appropriately expressed of course. If these forums start reading like the membership's been assimilated by the Borg - I'll move to The Postmortem.