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phobosdeimos1
Member

Posts: 625
Registered: 03-11

Good day and welcome to grandad's punk ghetto

I'm staying with someone right now who genuinely believes that there is such thing as ghosts. They will argue to the end of the Earth that they are right and I am a skeptic for not believing.

They bombard me with stories of why they believe in ghosts, I.E sightings and strange activities.

My response is as goes:

- I believe that you believe you saw a ghost.

- Sight, taste, touch and hearing are technically not always correct in distinguishing an outside stimuli and people could truly imagine anything if their brain accidentally created it. (elaborating further, reality is what you make it. Seeing something unusual whilst 'sober' does not make it actually exist within the universe.)

- The nature of existence is physical, therefore something can't exist without physically existing. There is no other type of existing other than physical.

- I am equally as ignorant as you as to why existence happened (not that anything can 'happen' outside of existence) but the fact that it is not possible within the laws of the universe that we know so far makes my argument billion-fold more likely to be true than yours.

- We are all here by chance and that chance is still going, so I accept the possibility that anything could happen, but again, I'll stick to the hugely bigger odds of the laws of the Universe staying the same.

So what's your nine currency disks on the whole Paranormal situation?

It's impossible for me to articulate what I actually comprehend and i'm sure all of you have a preconception about my intelligence but I assure you what you think that I think is wrong and vice versa. Pre-conceptions are useful on the surface but can prove fatally wrong in life or death situations. (Of course there's no guarantee anyone else is conscious other than myself.)

12-13-11 07:41 #

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Technician
Still no custom title

Posts: 5772
Registered: 08-04

You're hitting your head against a wall. It's very difficult to rationalize with people who believe in the paranormal. Religious people can often see reason after they have put so much faith into something to only have it completely backfire when they are the most desperate. Ghosts, well, you don't expect much out of them like you do an all-powerful being. Sometimes people like to ignore physical -or practical- evidence and believe in the imaginary.

Last edited by Technician on 12-13-11 at 08:04

12-13-11 07:57 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07

Paranormal and supernatural are merely concepts used to disguise ignorance and obscurantism.

If something can be perceived, then it means it can be interacted with, notably by light. If it can be interacted with, it can be studied and understood, and is therefore not a supernatural phenomenon but a natural one.

So, they saw a ghost? It wasn't a supernatural ghost.

There are plenty of things which would have been deemed magical in the past that are now perfectly mundane. The Internet -- practically instantaneous worldwide communications -- is one. Light bulbs -- illuminating a whole room as if it were broad daylight with but a flick of the wrist on a switch -- is another. How about all these radio/IR-based things, which are imperceptible to human senses? A gate that goes "beep" when you pass through it carrying a weapon is certainly the kind of magical objects you'd read about in some Dungeons & Dragons source book. I'm pretty sure you could make a whole "mystery of the cursed rock" story about a lump of uranium. "All its owners got sick and died!" Well, duh.

12-13-11 08:11 #

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Craigs
The only idiot here besides Csonicgo

Posts: 2438
Registered: 11-05

I believe...

That ghosts are bullshit and people who actually claim to have seen them are full of shit.

12-13-11 08:27 #

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DoomUK
Forum Staple

Posts: 2228
Registered: 04-04

It's unlikely that most ghost stories are true due to a lack of evidence to suggest there's any truth to ghosts whatsoever, despite years of real scientists taking it all quite seriously before coming to the conclusion that it's bullshit and can at best be explained away as some common (though fascinating, perhaps even more so than the supernatural) natural phenomena that non-scientists aren't smart enough to grasp. But I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of like 1% of ghost stories being legit and beyond the current capabilities of science to understand properly.

Think of it as a kind of TV broadcast where certain memories of a certain event are replayed to certain people under certain conditions. If you don't have a TV and aren't in a particular place at a particular time, you can't watch it. If it's the spirit of a once-living person that has somehow survived biological death then it might stand to reason that they are trying to get a certain message across to certain people, and aren't going to appear to everyone because it's none of their business.

...I honestly don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. But that's my opinion on the topic.

12-13-11 08:51 #

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GreyGhost
a ghost... only grey

Posts: 5703
Registered: 01-08

<--- Living proof (if that's not a contradiction in terms) that ghosts exist. :-)

@phobosdeimos1 - your friend is chasing shadows. I believe a lot of reported paranormal activity is the product of an overactive imagination (aka - wishful thinking), some are the work of hoaxters and what's left might be worth studying if they're not one-off encounters.

Anyone here believe in spontaneous human combustion?

12-13-11 09:14 #

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Satyr000
Member

Posts: 288
Registered: 10-08

I'm still on the fence about ghosts a such for the same reason iim still unsure if there is a god. I have yet to see first hand proof they are real. That being said I do think there are things man should never mess with. Casting runes made me feel uneasy and I'm sure some practises in vodoo and tarrot cards might do the same. Tho I do have to admit I was a bit unhappy when Candy Man ended up being fake, same with Bloody Marry(sp)

12-13-11 09:27 #

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Craigs
The only idiot here besides Csonicgo

Posts: 2438
Registered: 11-05

I knew a girl who had a close encounter with a ghost once. She went to a party during spring break and ended up getting totally wasted and eventually blacked out. The next morning she woke up naked completely covered in ectoplasmic goo

12-13-11 09:36 #

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printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT

Posts: 6845
Registered: 06-06

How do you explain metal thin L-shaped bars held in your hands starting to tremble uncontrollably when above burnt (or whatever specific) ground, then you regain control when going elsewhere? Or is it magnetic field and they're magnetic?

12-13-11 09:37 #

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DoomUK
Forum Staple

Posts: 2228
Registered: 04-04

printz said:
How do you explain metal thin L-shaped bars held in your hands starting to tremble uncontrollably when above burnt (or whatever specific) ground, then you regain control when going elsewhere? Or is it magnetic field and they're magnetic?

That's an easy one:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

Satyr000 said:
Tho I do have to admit I was a bit unhappy when Candy Man ended up being fake

12-13-11 09:42 #

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printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT

Posts: 6845
Registered: 06-06

Oh, the article name made me think of a physical phenomenon I wasn't aware about (and would make me look like a fool), but it's only about reflexes and stuff, which doesn't help explaining. If it can't even be reproduced to be uploaded to YouTube, that makes it even weirder.

I also really like the rare but often observed (meteorological) phenomenons that aren't discussed very often. I think ball lightning and cryometeors qualify, hell yeah.

12-13-11 09:46 #

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DoomUK
Forum Staple

Posts: 2228
Registered: 04-04

printz said:
Oh, the article name made me think of a physical phenomenon I wasn't aware about (and would make me look like a fool), but it's only about reflexes and stuff, which doesn't help explaining. If it can't even be reproduced to be uploaded to YouTube, that makes it even weirder.

Then just Google "dowsing debunked". There's been plenty of investigations done which prove it to be nothing more than people walking around holding a pair of sticks and looking strange.

12-13-11 10:02 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07

Yeah. Dowsing might genuinely work for some people... But then, it's not the stick that's doing anything. It's their brain subconsciously analyzing certain cues in the environment (such as what kind of vegetation grows, subliminal sound of water flowing underground, whatever) and resulting in ideomotion which can be noticed consciously.

The dowsing stick is but a crutch, a sort of focus without intrinsic powers.

It's like pendulums. I know someone who was given a pendulum by hippy friends of her, and after long explanations on how it was supposed to work (full of pseudo-mystical mumbo-jumbo with "forces" and "energies" and "vibrations"), she was convinced enough to try. She made a few yes/no tests, and it worked! Then one day her cat went missing. And still didn't come home on the morrow. She thought something ill had befallen the poor kitty, asked the pendulum "is it dead?", and the pendulum said "yes". Guess who meowed at the door soon after, with a great hunger for kibbles? After that event I could convince her that the pendulum wasn't connected to any universal truth, only to her own arms and that the only thing that it told her was what she was thinking.

12-13-11 11:03 #

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Phobus
Senior Member

Posts: 1480
Registered: 10-06

"It's all in your head, man!" Is pretty much my entire opinion on the supernatural.

12-13-11 11:47 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6000
Registered: 07-00

It's not a fact until it's a demonstrable, reproducible phenomenon. Unfalsifiable claims should be rejected until convincing evidence is presented to support them.

All I can suggest is you ask him to present evidence of his claims and systematically analyse and deconstruct the evidence he gives you. I'd point out that:

Eyewitness testimony is not convincing evidence. People can hallucinate or very easily misinterpret what they observe, or lie or be intentionally tricked. I'd say that probably >80% of the "evidence" presented for ghosts is supposed eyewitness accounts, and it isn't convincing.
Other than that, what evidence is there? There are certainly of claimed "photos" of ghosts, but many of these are faked, double exposed, etc.
By what plausible mechanism would ghosts exist? Assuming we're not going to rewrite the whole of physics, it would have to fit within our scientific understanding of the universe. What are they supposed to be? Spirits of dead people? How is that supposed to happen bearing in mind that we have a pretty good understanding of how the brain works, etc. ?

Gez said:
Yeah. Dowsing might genuinely work for some people... But then, it's not the stick that's doing anything. It's their brain subconsciously analyzing certain cues in the environment (such as what kind of vegetation grows, subliminal sound of water flowing underground, whatever) and resulting in ideomotion which can be noticed consciously.

The dowsing stick is but a crutch, a sort of focus without intrinsic powers.

Dowsing comes from the ideomotor effect, which is the same mechanism behind ouija boards and automatic writing. It's actually very interesting as a psychological phenomenon.

12-13-11 13:49 #

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DoomUK
Forum Staple

Posts: 2228
Registered: 04-04

fraggle said:
Dowsing comes from the ideomotor effect

ITT: We learn that the supernatural exists, because my posts are invisible to everyone which means my spirit is clinging onto life by assuming I can still post on Doomworld.

12-13-11 14:42 #

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Phobus
Senior Member

Posts: 1480
Registered: 10-06

That's strange. I think there's a post between mine and fraggle's most recent posts, but as soon as I focus it's not there anymore :\

12-13-11 15:05 #

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40oz
And who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But that's extremely unlikely because I'm always right.

Posts: 5065
Registered: 08-07

when i drive home from my girlfriends house at 2:00 am, there's always this weird puff of smoke or fog or something almost every time i pull into my development. I don't know how to explain it; it's not always in the same spot and there's no sewer grates or anything nearby. I wanna say that it's exhaust from another car, but last time I saw it, all the cars beside me on the road weren't running

Also I run it the fuck over every time. Am I pissing it off?

12-13-11 17:25 #

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Snakes
Senior Member

Posts: 1538
Registered: 09-09

Paranormal Activity has to be one of the lamest film franchises ever.

12-13-11 18:03 #

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eargosedown
Forum Regular

Posts: 780
Registered: 12-04

It's comforting to feel that my house has the remnants of my deceased pets inhabiting it.

But mostly wishful thinking. When you die, u be ded.

12-13-11 18:34 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6000
Registered: 07-00

DoomUK said:

ITT: We learn that the supernatural exists, because my posts are invisible to everyone which means my spirit is clinging onto life by assuming I can still post on Doomworld.

Boo hoo.

12-13-11 19:14 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07

eargosedown said:
It's comforting to feel that my house has the remnants of my deceased pets inhabiting it.

Well, you're still going to find shed hairs everywhere for years and years, so yeah I guess.

12-13-11 19:17 #

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DoomUK
Forum Staple

Posts: 2228
Registered: 04-04

Snakes said:
Paranormal Activity has to be one of the lamest film franchises ever.

I must disagree. The first movie was a nice update on the old haunted house theme at least. The sequel was more of the same. Can't speak for PA3 as I've not seen it.

12-13-11 19:29 #

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Du Mhan Yhu
Member

Posts: 514
Registered: 12-10

Snakes said:
Paranormal Activity has to be one of the lamest film franchises ever.

I agree with this! It's horribly retarded.

12-13-11 20:25 #

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GoatLord
Senior Member

Posts: 1414
Registered: 07-02

People who foolishly choose to believe in paranormal phenomena probably do so for the following reasons:

1) A refusal to accept the claims of classical physics and quantum mechanics. These areas of study explain nearly everything around us, and it doesn't take much research to realize that apparitions and such are physical impossibilities.

2) A refusal to let go of superstitions. Whether it's a belief in deities, spell casting, bad luck being caused by mundane events, or in this case, the appearance of spirits and ghosts, superstitions cloud our judgement.

3)A refusal to accept that perception is flawed, not objective. Our sense of sight, sound and even touch can lead us to wildly different conclusions than what is objectively in front of us. It's easy to misinterpret reality in low lighting, when we're by ourselves, or when we actively seek to experience something that is not there.

4) Influence from media (movies, TV shows, literature) and family/friends who make claims of paranormal activity being a real thing.

I used to believe in this sort of thing as a child, and--no surprise here--as an adult, I do not experience anything paranormal. All of the things I supposedly experienced were in low lighting and in some cases I was not fully awake.

One thing that disturbed me for years was hearing the TV when it was turned off. I was even more disturbed by the fact that my friends and peers knew exactly what I was talking about. A rational person such as myself knows that auditory hallucinations can occur if a repetitive background noise is heard for hours at a time. But the superstitious person believes that something strange is lurking in their house and that their friends/peers coincidentally have the same problem.

12-13-11 20:25 #

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yellowmadness54
Senior Member

Posts: 1149
Registered: 03-10

I believe in it because its fun to. Ghosts and all, its interesting. A lot of stuff goes unexplained.

I like ghost videos and all.

12-13-11 22:43 #

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HavoX
Member

Posts: 407
Registered: 12-11

LOL, ghosts don't exist.

But if one did appear in front of me, I'd tell him to fuck off.

12-13-11 22:57 #

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Scet
Member

Posts: 456
Registered: 05-06

Hypnagogia is probably to blame for 99.999% of all paranormal encounters.

12-13-11 23:00 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

Posts: 15854
Registered: 01-01

Ghosts, alien visitations, and the like are all bullshit. My mom claims to have seen ghosts and talked to dead friends and relatives, but I think its wishful thinking on her part.

On the other hand, I have quite an interest in cryptozoology and while most of that is bullshit as well, there's a lot more truth to it than most people seem to realize.

12-13-11 23:10 #

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GoatLord
Senior Member

Posts: 1414
Registered: 07-02

I'd like to draw an interesting comparison between paranormal sightings and exorcisms. No Atheist or otherwise non-religious person has ever been possessed. That ONLY occurs with people who believe in religions in which possession is a possibility. Similarly, you won't find skeptical, scientifically-oriented people claiming to have had paranormal experiences. If you're looking for it, you'll find it, albeit through delusion.

12-14-11 00:57 #

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Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Your lame theories about the Paranormal

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