The Master Levels, a cash grab?

[Rudolph]

Would it be fair to call The Master Levels of Doom II a cash grab?

 

I understand that the project was put together by Id Software to make up for all the unauthorized, low-quality map packs that were being sold at the time and I do not have much of a problem with any of the individual Master Level per se; some might be bit too much on the easy side and at least one of them (i.e. Subterra) seems to feature an inescapable pit that feels very much like a beginner's trap, but as far as I can tell, none of them feel unpolished or badly designed.

 

However, it does not change the fact that they were ultimately user maps that were not even meant to be played in succession - which makes getting some of the secrets pointless, since their content is not meant to carry over to the next level. All Id Software did was put them on a disc and sell them, and that was about it.

 

So, what do you think?

[Dark Pulse]

It's more like the Master Levels were the leg up that they'd have over the other guys - known good maps from known good mappers.

 

Maximum Doom was the cash grab.

 

That said, in hindsight, remember the era - not everyone had internet connections, and even if you did, we're talking 56k at best (and more likely 28.8k). A whole CD filled with hundreds, if not thousands, of levels to play is quite the appealing prospect. It's easy to forget that when in 2022 you can download even a DVD's worth of content in just 5-10 minutes.

 

For some people, the PWADs on those CDs were all the custom levels they got.

[princetontiger]

Maximum Doom was all I had until the early 2000s. I missed the USENET (alt.games.doom) scene entirely.

[Zaxxon]

The way i see it, it's more of a cash grab than anything else. How does it make up for the unauthorized releases? It's not like it could've prevented them, unless id was releasing new Doom content regularly. The Master Levels wasn't even a quality release... just a bunch of random, disconnected levels that had no place being on one disc. They could've (and should have) hire a few mappers to put together a coherent megawad instead, like they did for Plutonia. Sadly, they've missed the opportunity to put Perdition's Gate on Final Doom, forcing it to be one of the unauthorized commercial releases. That thing would've been right at home next to Plutonia, it's much better and more consistent than TNT Evilution and it's light years ahead of the Master Levels.

[Rudolph]

Oh, I agree that the Master Levels are solid from a design perspective. That is why I am conflicted about calling the package a cash grab.

 

After all, Id Software made money by selling other people's work while doing very little themselves.

[Gez]

There was a whole shovelware industry that appeared because for most people, mail-ordering disks from a shovelware company was simply cheaper and more convenient than attempting to get the file through the Internet. There's a reason you had the D!Zone and so on.

 

As Internet became more and more easy to use (the web!) and cheap (DSL!) and fast (DSL again!), this entire industry died off.

 

 

That said? Yes, Maximum Doom was a cash grab, and so were Ultimate Doom and Final Doom. That doesn't mean these products were necessarily bad, but they were definitely a way to milk Doom for all the money they could get out of it.

[Dark Pulse]

8 minutes ago, Zaxxon said:

Sadly, they've missed the opportunity to put Perdition's Gate on Final Doom, forcing it to be one of the unauthorized commercial releases. That thing would've been right at home next to Plutonia, it's much better and more consistent than TNT Evilution and it's light years ahead of the Master Levels.

Other way around - Perdition's Gate was offered when Final Doom was basically already being pressed and prepared for release. I think it was Tom Mustaine who mentioned they offered them up to someone (American?) and he expressed interest, but when he checked back in with id, "the window of opportunity had passed," which implies Final Doom was done and nearly ready for release - too late to get it in there.

[Rudolph]

13 minutes ago, Gez said:

so were Ultimate Doom and Final Doom

Really? I mean, Ultimate Doom had an additional episode designed by Id Software employees and Final Doom features two full 32-level megawads with (mostly) original music and some additional textures. It feels like a lot more efforts went into them than the Master Levels.

[Gibbon]

Back then, yes the Master Levels were better than most other shovelware stuff.

The Maximum Doom stuff were ID's attempt at semi official shovelware.

[Rudolph]

Oh wait, Maximum Doom was Id's too? :o

 

 

[Gothic]

Maximum Doom on the Unity port when? It is official after all.

[Dark Pulse]

3 minutes ago, Gothic said:

Maximum Doom on the Unity port when? It is official after all.

Never, because they just grabbed a bunch of WADs off the internet, and it's very likely many, if not most, of those people would no longer be reachable, and more than likely quite a few of them are even dead.

[Gibbon]

3 minutes ago, Gothic said:

Maximum Doom on the Unity port when? It is official after all.

That would be one hell of a download.  It's like 600MB :)

 

And they would need the written permission of every single wad author..  nearly all of whom are uncontactable by now.

[Midnight_00]

Yeah, but at least most of the levels are good. Does anyone actually know how much it cost at the time?

[Rudolph]

Wait, so Maximum Doom is actually good? I am asking, because Gibbon has described it as "semi-official shovelware".

[Teo Slayer]

Jokes on you, I enjoyed the Master Levels for Doom 2

[Doomkid]

More like the CASHter Levels, am I right?!?!

 

 

 

 

 

Also, Maximum Doom has a small smattering levels that are almost on par with E1, for the time anyway, but each one is separated by rolling fields of crap. So lucky my family had decent net in the mid-late 90s, the stuff I found on GeoCities sites was almost always of a way higher average quality than the “2 hour doodles by a bored college kid in early 1995 who wasn’t even that into Doom, he was just doing it out of boredom” that make up all of Max Doom.

[Gibbon]

45 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Wait, so Maximum Doom is actually good? I am asking, because Gibbon has described it as "semi-official shovelware".

It is semi-official as it was actually released on CD by them and GT Interactive.  But like Doomkid said..  it is nearly all, total utter crap.

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Really? I mean, Ultimate Doom had an additional episode designed by Id Software employees and Final Doom features two full 32-level megawads with (mostly) original music and some additional textures. It feels like a lot more efforts went into them than the Master Levels.

The Ultimate Doom was a demand from GT to get a retail version of Doom "1" (remember, the plan was Doom distributed as shareware with full version through mail order; and then Doom II as a retail game). While there are new levels and a new sky texture (derived from the episode 3 ending screen), there's no new music or even regular textures, as well as no new sprites, not even some from Doom II. At least one of the level was just something that they had lying around (E4M7 was from Dr. Sleep's Inferno series), and Perfect Hatred was famously knocked out in just six hours.

 

As for Final Doom, this wasn't an in-house product. A lot of effort went into them, sure, but very little of which was by the id crew.

[Rudolph]

47 minutes ago, Teo Slayer said:

Jokes on you, I enjoyed the Master Levels for Doom 2

I actually enjoy The Master Levels, especially the Deluxe Edition! I just wish it could have been balanced for continuous play.

 

@Doomkid You should have called your projects "Maximum Doom In Name Only" or "Maximum Doom The Way Id Should Have Done". :P

[Rudolph]

11 minutes ago, Gez said:

The Ultimate Doom was a demand from GT to get a retail version of Doom "1" (remember, the plan was Doom distributed as shareware with full version through mail order; and then Doom II as a retail game). While there are new levels and a new sky texture (derived from the episode 3 ending screen), there's no new music or even regular textures, as well as no new sprites, not even some from Doom II. At least one of the level was just something that they had lying around (E4M7 was from Dr. Sleep's Inferno series), and Perfect Hatred was famously knocked out in just six hours.

I did not know The Ultimate Doom was GT's idea! Thank you!

 

It is impressive that Romero was able to design Perfect Hatred in such a short time; I do not particularly like the map, especially the beginning, but I do find it ultimately much more rewarding to play than "Hell Beneath", which is just punishing from beginning to end.

[msx2plus]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

each one is separated by rolling fields of crap

just the way i like it! and you do too, don't lie!

[Duderald]

Hardly ever played the Master Levels, but if I were to throw my two cents in, it seems there's not enough content to justify the price tag.

[Gifty]

I always took it as a reaction to the unauthorized level disks that were going around, like "we can't stop these from being made so we may as well have our official say on the matter" sort of thing. Not something they artistically had their heart in, but more of a branding-conscious thing than a money thing.

[msx2plus]

2 minutes ago, Gifty said:

I always took it as a reaction to the unauthorized level disks that were going around

afaik that's exactly what it was

[Fletcher`]

4 hours ago, princetontiger said:

Maximum Doom was all I had until the early 2000s. I missed the USENET (alt.games.doom) scene entirely.

Nothing like officially sanctioned shovelware. I love it.

[Murdoch]

Someone please tell me how a free update for existing owners (aka Ultimate Doom in this case) is a cash grab?

[dei_eldren]

Everything produced is a cash-grab if you choose to look at it that way.  No one would produce anything unless it made money because that would be rather self-defeating.  So what?  What matters is the product and whether it was worth the expense, not the motivation of the producer.  In a denigrating sense, a cash-grab could only be applied to a sub-standard product, which Master Levels is not. 

[xScavengerWolfx]

Honesty if the master levels were such a cash grab, wouldn't they be on the D!Zone CD's of the late 90's early 00's?

[dasho]

Still better than Oblivion's $5 horse armor