Heretic: Treasure Chest - PLEASE FILL IN SLOTS!

[printz]

Any chance for filling the bonus mapset too (E6Mx)?

[duvel]

That'd be pushing it, at this point. We're not filling up E4, let alone E5.

[OmegaJ4]

WIP Screenshot

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8360/screenshotheretic200806ss3.png

The blue key is heavily guarded by a Maulotaur and some Saberclaws.

Just thought i'd post a small update.

[printz]

I'd put just a bit more detail there. Just a bit.

[Creaphis]

In other words, "lots."


The "sixth episode" isn't even accessible from the main menu in most ports, so putting levels there would be silly - unless we come across three good DM maps, or want to hide an easter egg somewhere.

[Lord_Z]

We are having a hard enough time filling the first five episodes. Six would really be pushing it, unless there was a whole slew of new mappers all of a sudden.

[printz]

Are D'Sparils allowed in every map, not only in E3M8?

[Creaphis]

Killing D'Sparil more than once wouldn't make any sense if we want the slightest amount of continuity, and I think we should have at least the slightest amount of that. However, I have figured out a way to make it look like the D'sparil monster "escapes". If we agree that this can happen in a map slot somewhere then I can explain how to set it up.

[esselfortium]

I've been wondering about this for a while and I've got to ask...is there any quality control in this project at all? :(

[printz]

Wow, Kirby's been banned, dunno why but didn't see it coming; how will you get the answers from him any more? I wouldn't empty his slot though, I'd use emails, chats and all.

Well, the challenges of survival...

[esselfortium]

printz said:

Wow, Kirby's been banned, dunno why but didn't see it coming; how will you get the answers from him any more? I wouldn't empty his slot though, I'd use emails, chats and all.

Well, the challenges of survival...

Evidently his brother recently registered a bunch of troll accounts from his computer.

[Creaphis]

esselfortium said:

I've been wondering about this for a while and I've got to ask...is there any quality control in this project at all? :(

I'm really kind of hoping there will be.

[kristus]

I was hoping there wouldn't be.

[Creaphis]

Heh.

Yeah, if you skimmed this whole thread over again, you'd see that I've been torn between various possible points in the quality:friendliness ratio, and I'm still not sure what the best stance is. I'd like to see a higher average quality level, but that means that some people have to be booted out and nobody seems eager to do that.

Regardless of the end product, I'm still going to contribute a map to this project, but... I'll start a new one, more simple in scope and classic in style. The map I'm working on wouldn't really fit in here for a couple of reasons.

[esselfortium]

A wide range in quality means the better maps will get lost in a pile of dung, and most people probably won't bother playing through the entire wad.

[Creaphis]

That's another reason I think 45 maps is pushing it.

[duvel]

Just so you guys know, I've been meaning to wait for a single complete episode before we do quality control. Easier to tell people to improve a finished map than an unfinished one.

I want to hopefully finish the project by December (though there's no formal release date as of now). It should be possible with the amount of work that's put in it. We just need a couple more mappers and some more finished maps, and then we can really start getting the nitty gritty testing stage.

I do encourage people to talk about which maps they do/do not like (in a respectful manner). For example, I feel map E4M4 uses too many monsters with too little ammo, and lacks much form in favor of these monster battles. Doing these sorts of talks can help us get a lot of that testing done a little bit earlier, so there's not as much to do when the time comes.

Let's not get too bogged down. We're closer to completing than when we started. Remember this project almost died, so this is a pretty big miracle in and of itself.

[esselfortium]

ler said:

Just so you guys know, I've been meaning to wait for a single complete episode before we do quality control. Easier to tell people to improve a finished map than an unfinished one.

"Hey, this map sucks!" "Why didn't you tell me sooner :("

[duvel]

esselfortium said:

"Hey, this map sucks!" "Why didn't you tell me sooner :("

Well I'm assuming they're not going to warrant THAT big of a do-over. Even E2M1 wasn't that bad when people were complaining about that.

But if you've got a huge problem with it beforehand that should be brought up, please :).

[Creaphis]

ler said:

Well I'm assuming they're not going to warrant THAT big of a do-over. Even E2M1 wasn't that bad when people were complaining about that.

Some maps unfortunately do need heavy improvement, and not every mapper will be willing to rework a map that they already thought was done - especially if we hurt their feelings by telling them that their map is bad. We haven't heard a peep out of Jobro since we all tore his e4m4 apart, for instance, and it simply can't be in the set in its current state.

I'm also still torn about e2m1. It's fun, and the texturing is better than it was at first, but the '94-esque architecture will be a guaranteed turn-off for most players. We've just gotten used to it by now. Also, reworking a map to solve this problem is essentially impossible - it would have to be rebuilt with better sector shaping and architecture from scratch. I previously decided that perhaps I should adopt the attitude of valuing the mappers over the maps, but, if our goal is to make a good megawad for other people to play who aren't part of this project, then the map quality needs to become the priority again. Ultimately we'll have to be willing to throw maps out at the risk of offending people.

Yeah, what we need is more quality maps. And, we might actually start getting more good maps made if we drop the worse ones. Keeping the bad levels in the mix, even in the pre-quality-control stage, sends a poor image to potential mappers and makes them think that this project isn't worth their effort.

[duvel]

See, throwing out maps also has a negative effect. If we start throwing out maps, then people will be hesistant to join because their map might not be up to the subjective bar. Not to mention, who decides which maps are thrown out?

It's kind of like Andrew Johnson's impeachment, right here. I'm against setting dangerous precedents.

[Creaphis]

Virtually everyone who makes good maps (and most people who make bad ones) believe that their maps are good. Anyone concerned that their own maps aren't good enough for a community project is probably right.

Also, the process of sorting maps into good and bad, whether subjective or not, is usually unanimous among those Doomers who are experienced with wad critique. Ask people like me and Essel, or experienced playtesters, if you're not sure.

Accepting every map is a dangerous precedent.

For the record, it is possible to kick out a map without kicking out a mapper. If the mapper is given clear criticisms but is unwilling/unable to use them for a replacement map, then so be it. At least we tried to help them improve.

[40oz]

I maybe an exception to that, I know good maps when I see them, but I can't generate a flawless map for my life.

[OmegaJ4]

(I'm a little bit nervous... but i'll keep trying)

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8992/screenshotheretic200806bz1.png

Any better?

[printz]

I'd really lower the outside light level to 160, to go fine with the rainy cloudy sky. 255 is only good for sunny holidays.

Otherwise, detail's ok. It's just that the walls would look much better if the lighting wasn't 255. Dim it.

[Lord_Z]

Looks pretty good. The only thing I could suggest is to add a few more wall decorations/variations.

[Dreadopp]

I think it looks good as well.

Lord_Z said:

The only thing I could suggest is to add a few more wall decorations/variations.

Yeah I think more wall decorations would be good for the map. Maybe just put some stained glass windows, or whatever, on the outer wall.

[OmegaJ4]

printz said:

I'd really lower the outside light level to 160, to go fine with the rainy cloudy sky. 255 is only good for sunny holidays.

Otherwise, detail's ok. It's just that the walls would look much better if the lighting wasn't 255. Dim it.

Don't worry, i only have 255 for testing and editing, when i'm done, i switch the lighting down.

[Creaphis]

JohnnyRancid said:

I maybe an exception to that, I know good maps when I see them, but I can't generate a flawless map for my life.

I'd say that follows the rule, if you accurately know when your map is good. There's no such thing as a "flawless" map in my opinion.

[Necros20]

I'm actually hoping that if this project is ever finished, something like it would be done for Hexen. ;)