The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1

[Tristan]

MAP04: A Good Flying Bird - Esselfortium
08:07, 101% kills, 50% secrets, 0 deaths

This was quite a ramp up in difficulty for me. On two occasions I found myself having to kill a number of enemies with 2 or 1 health, and no health packs until I killed said enemies. I'll never know how I survived that.
Anyway, well designed, and I love the music on this track - again by Essel.
To open the red door, you have to press a switch that requires the red key, then press another switch behind it; personally I'm not sure what the point is in that. In my rather fast-paced style of playing, I hit the switch, turned away to go and find what it did without noticing the other switch was behind it and ended up traversing most of the map before going back and finding there was a second switch. Probably my own fault, but still, just a small nitpick.

Eris gives this level 7/10!

[mouldy]

MAP04 - “A Good Flying Bird” by Esselfortium

demo

One death in the demo, think it was a lucky rev missile that did a bit too much damage. I was playing more cautiously than I needed to I think, there was enough health around to allow for some recklessness and the second play through was a lot more fun. At first I was a bit confused by the layout with so many locked doors, but like the previous map as you progress you realise they are there to facilitate backtracking and help make the route more obvious. It does make for a fairly linear experience but I can only imagine how lost I would get in a map like this if it were non-linear.

I must say, gorgeous and well made as it was, there wasn't anything massively memorable about this map for me. I think this was the only criticism I had the first time I played through this wad, that a lot of the maps were so similar in the way they look and play that they could easliy be parts of the same map. I do remember a few of the maps from last time I played, but the rest all blend into one amorphous techbase. Thats a pretty minor gripe when something is this well made, but it does tend to make me think of "directors cut" hollywood films where they include so much extra material that you end up prefering the shorter pacier version. I think I might just be grasping for something to complain about though.

[Tompig]

Map 03 - The room taking shape.

Short sweet and to the point, had to pistol start this one because Zandronum apparently does not save with this wad.
Highlights of this map were the wonderful traps surrounding the yellow key. Crushers that let in more monsters, a hidden BFG and locking me inside with a mancubi that previously looked like a pointless target was genius.

Ammo was tight but enjoyably so. (Music kick ass as ever.)

Map 04 - A good flying bird.

Firefights are the name of the game here and so is artillery support. Those damn reverents are everywhere forcing you to duck, dodge, get pinned behind cover and respond in-kind with the odd rocket volley.
Blasting my way towards the first key was my favorite part, gotta love taking an entrenched position, and then defending it from a caco counter attack backed up by a renewed force thanks to our friendly archie.

Not the best in this wad but still really damn good.

[punnyone]

Map 4 - A Good Flying Bird - Essel - HMP - 100%secrets/kills

This is a noticeable ramp-up in difficulty (although nothing too hard yet). Best parts of the map are the right portion with the nice looking vanilla compatible sloped support beams. The toughest fight for me was the cool looking dark and cramped blue key room. (damn rev's!) Guided by voices level name aside, there's no denying that just about anytime a bird or any avian creature is mentioned in a level name, there's going to be arch-viles. Interestingly enough, the first one I've never found to be too hard to defeat. Perhaps it's the open space of the right portion of the map. The one at map's end however left me with precious little health left, so the start of the next map should be interesting. Nice new secret addition as well.

As an aside, I must say I like this method of playing a level a day. It gives each level room to breathe and you remember more about each level. Plus, this is only my 3rd time playing the wad which I've been purposely avoiding overplaying in anticipation for its remaining two episodes, so in a way, it is a bit like playing it for the first time.

[Veinen]

Tried solonet and felt it was a bit more interesting so I'll be switching to that. Played through map03 on regular UV at first but replayed it on solonet and it was definitely more fun. Map04 is only regular UV but after that it's only solonet. And there will be some demos, regardless if anyone's interested or not.

Map03: The Room Taking Shape

A nice shortie this one, definitely the most memorable out of the first three. Mainly because of the yellow key arena, which was pretty damn fun to be honest. Especially on solonet since the place got kinda crowded. I also managed to forget how to open the BFG-secret so I was cornered on the ground floor with just the ssg as a viable option for gunning down the opposition and Cacos swarming everywhere. Some crazy moments followed but nothing I couldn't handle eventually. The BFG is a bit overkill I think, since you can easily manage without it. And if you don't want to make it too hard, then just put some cell packs laying around for the plasma gun. Other than that, the level was once again a rather easy one. Red key had another trap but it was much tamer than the yellow key one. Secrets were pretty easy to find this time and despite the layout seemingly being a bit complicated, the actual route is very straightforward. Visuals were as good as expected. Solonet UV-Max in 5:41-demo, just casual playing and a first exit.

Map04: A Good Flying Bird

Well, it's a good map but I have to agree with mouldy that it's really not that memorable after all. There's just nothing that stands out in particular for me combat-wise or visually. But like I said, the level itself is good-looking and the gameplay is of decent quality. I liked the combat design of the ssg area, first with the Arach/Revs and later with the Archie. Didn't find any secrets, though I do look straight at one of them and I even shoot the panel but I never jump to press it. But I'm pleased that my gut-feeling proved to be right on that one, haha. FDA, regular UV with 102% kills/0% secrets in 9:21.

[Jayextee]

MAP04 - A GOOD FLYING BIRD

A great-looking level with some nice outdoor parts. I must say, there is little actual tension here; but I don't think I mind too much. Red key cacodemon ambush was kinda neat, as was the Archvile appearing near where the yellow key is collected. Nice re-use of space here. Ending was weird. Are these maps getting shorter?


---

Now, on the difficulty (as discussed yesterday); I kinda like what BTSX is doing, in a way. It is such a good-looking Doom mod, that there is always the possibility that people who don't usually play Doom may get into it, for the visuals alone. So why chase them off? It's accessible, and the solo-net 'additional' difficulty is a kinda smart thing to do because it follows those who are more knowledgeable about Doom will know how to access it, and more likely to cope.

Also, this probably allows for a smoother ramp up to whatever difficulty the mapset ends up as (an approach I'm going for with my own Nex Credo, which has an insultingly-easy MAP01 so I can ramp up steadily).

The only complain I guess I really have is that mid-tier monsters appear incredibly early and pose next-to-no threat. I think that may be my personal tastes coming in there (I kinda like a levelset to tease); but with regards the 'fresh blood coming in' approach, it's probably very clever; in three maps BTSX shown them almost all the goods.

As an aside, how's this play on Nightmare! setting?

[Urban Space Cowboy]

Seele00TextOnly said:

Plans are in place, however, to tweak up the difficulty in a variety of encounters.

Don't do this. Early levels are SUPPOSED to be easy because they're EARLY. Not every WAD needs to be Hell Revealed III!

[esselfortium]

Urban Space Cowboy said:

Don't do this. Early levels are SUPPOSED to be easy because they're EARLY. Not every WAD needs to be Hell Revealed III!

The early levels should still be pretty straightforward. We're not adding archviles and revenants around every corner (with apologies to Tarnsman :P), just tuning up a few encounters that could use sharper teeth, particularly on UV.

[Steve D]

Urban Space Cowboy said:

Don't do this. Early levels are SUPPOSED to be easy because they're EARLY. Not every WAD needs to be Hell Revealed III!

You have a good point, but he did say "tweak." ;) I'm pretty happy with the current difficulty ramp, but then again, I suck, but I still like to play UV. Even so, I'm happy to hear that the end fight in Map02 has been tweaked for higher difficulty. I think it's better to have it more on par with the other fights in the map than to be as weak as it is in this build.

I personally don't believe in easy first levels, but then again, I'm not making my own personal Doom2 megawad, usually just sets of 5-6 maps. But I might go on to make a full Ultimate Doom megawad after I finish E1, and it won't have any easy first maps.

I guess this is a question each mapper and player has to settle for themselves. In the old days, when a high percentage of players played continuously, the notion of a difficulty ramp made more sense, but now that so many pistol-start each map, is there really a need for some sense of progression? Or do we do the progression for the benefit of continuous players and let the pistol starters do what they do?

I know that I currently put certain weapons as secrets in several maps in a set now for the benefit of pistol starters. Just one of the things that makes mapping complex these days.

I dunno, what do the rest of you think?

[j4rio]

Difficulty isn't everything. You can achieve easy difficulty in interesting ways as well as in boring ways. The same applies to harder difficulty. I personally never did mind if wad was easy, but I do mind when map is boring whether its aim was to be easy or hard one.

[Marcaek]

SteveD said:

but now that so many pistol-start each map, is there really a need for some sense of progression? Or do we do the progression for the benefit of continuous players and let the pistol starters do what they do?

I think you answered your own question here. Many maps(even in stock Doom\Doom 2) are considerably more difficult from a pistol start, yet have a more gradual curve when played in sequence which makes sense from a continuous-play perspective.

[Jayextee]

SteveD said:

I dunno, what do the rest of you think?

I like to tease. As a forewarning, I will be mentioning my own project(s) a lot here; but this is because I practice what I preach.

In the recent review of 900 Deep, it was noted that (and I quote) "it’s got a very solid (more solid than most) difficulty curve that picks up around E1M3 and keeps ramping up almost until the end" - and this is something I specifically focus on, because it is important to me that, even if theoretically, someone who has never played a wad before could be playing as their first ever experience.

Hence, I tease with weapons; I like to make players (except on easy setting) see the shotgun soldiers and wrestle the thing out of their cold dead hands rather than just giving the thing away. I like a few levels of getting used to that before I give an upgrade.

With monsters, I like to drip-feed; my in-progress Nex Credo is designed that there is, in the early levels, usually a selection of 'fodder' throughout the level and a unique (usually mid-tier) level at the end as a kinda 'boss' to that level. Later on these enemies become more and more commonplace as the difficulty gets higher.

Of course, early levels being very easy can get boring as sin to more experienced players so I like to make those incredibly short if I can; there's par times of 30 seconds in the main two IWAD first levels, and I've emulated that kind of length with both 900 Deep and Nex Credo -- I don't need a 5-minute trek to teach potentially-new players that collecting keys mean ambushes, or that outdoor areas mean imps and stuff, I don't insult their intelligence by dragging it on. Short and sweet, but easy -- leading up to eventually large and nasty ordeals that, by jove, I've prepared my audience for.

One thing that seems to go against this is the fact that I favour easy(ish) final boss levels. To me, the penultimate stage should be the longest and toughest; the last boss? Shit, that's basically the first part of the end sequence! A player should enjoy it, and feel like they're kicking ass rather than be frustrated. It's something I've respected (when a game does it) ever since the denouement of Super Metroid (one of the finest games ever to my mind). A steep dropoff at the end though, can be unsatisfying for some. So I like to ramp it up visually, make the player look like they're taking on a small army or something.

With regards to BTSX, it's got the beginnings of a curve there quite nicely; but without the tease. I'm 4 maps in and have only to see the two boss monsters (assuming there's no Icon of Sin stage nor SS Soldiers). Again, I say this is just a matter of taste; I will concede that that way they've been used thus far means that I don't think I'm in danger of seeing the same tricks used any time soon.

It's insightful to see the way the team have done this, and the reactions a lot of players are giving. I've been neutral/disappointed in tone, but I accept that this may well be a slow-burner. And I don't mind, you know? :)

[Steve D]

Jayextee said:

I like to tease. As a forewarning, I will be mentioning my own project(s) a lot here; but this is because I practice what I preach.

Which I don't mind at all. Once I read that review of 900 Deep, I had to download it. I became aware of this just a couple days ago, as well as Capellan's 100 Lines. I'll have to check that out, too. But one thing's for certain, nothing lights my fire like a good E1 replacement, and the screenshots look sweet. I'll try to play this tomorrow or Tuesday.

[Steve D]

j4rio said:

Difficulty isn't everything. You can achieve easy difficulty in interesting ways as well as in boring ways. The same applies to harder difficulty. I personally never did mind if wad was easy, but I do mind when map is boring whether its aim was to be easy or hard one.

Which brings us back to subjective views of individual players, and the reality that no map or mapper can be all things to all Doomers, as the commentary here indicates. One player's boring map is another's tense strategic challenge. I think I know what you're getting at, though. I guess the trick is doing it well enough so that a significant number of players are pleased. That's the tough part.

[Jayextee]

SteveD said:

Once I read that review of 900 Deep, I had to download it. I became aware of this just a couple days ago, as well as Capellan's 100 Lines. I'll have to check that out, too. But one thing's for certain, nothing lights my fire like a good E1 replacement, and the screenshots look sweet. I'll try to play this tomorrow or Tuesday.

Well, I didn't mean to Pimp My Shit™ there. But thanks! ^^;

I think the crux of what I'm saying is that whereas I'm finding BTSX a little dry in these early stages, I can kinda see what the team have gone for, because I do kinda the same thing; only perhaps much gentler.

[Steve D]

Marcaek said:

I think you answered your own question here. Many maps(even in stock Doom\Doom 2) are considerably more difficult from a pistol start, yet have a more gradual curve when played in sequence which makes sense from a continuous-play perspective.

You're right, but I like to ask the question every now and then to sound people out. It's clear from the commentary that a significant number of players and mappers still like a difficulty curve from easier to harder. Even pistol-starters seem to like that, and there also seems to be room for "breather" maps after a really tough one in, say, the middle of a set. I can't remember if id made breather maps, it's so long since I played the IWAD maps except for Knee Deep again and again, and E1M7 is the hardest one there -- not saying much, I know, but I guess I would use Knee Deep as a perfect example of what I would mean if describing maps that are easy, yet interesting and fun.

[Capellan]

SteveD said:

Capellan's 100 Lines

It's not really "mine". I just made a map as an experiment and it snowballed people providing enough levels to make two 32-map megawads. Heck, Jayextee has more maps in there than I do :)

We're probably about a week away from loading to idgames, so any playtesting people want to do of those wads, feel free!


As far as the 'sense of progression' question goes, I'm in favor believer of having the average difficulty escalate through the mapset, but I don't believe every map needs to be harder than the one before. Some peaks and troughs are allowed. A difficulty progression like this, in other words (though not necessarily so regularly up/down).



Now, this is actually just an extrapolation of how I like individual levels to work. Because I like ebb and flow in my play. I like a map that builds up the difficulty to a major encounter, then have some more incidental encounters before building up to a new peak. I like changes of pace and progression (provided they're not wholly stop/start - I'm not a fan of maps where every battle is a set piece, and there's nothing to do between them, I like a mix of staged and more freeform encounters).

[Seele00TextOnly]

SteveD said:

It's clear from the commentary that a significant number of players and mappers still like a difficulty curve from easier to harder. Even pistol-starters seem to like that, and there also seems to be room for "breather" maps after a really tough one in, say, the middle of a set.

The 'clusters' setup that BTSX episodes employ aims to accommodate this, I think most will find. Generally a cluster has its own ascent in difficulty, until the next cluster when there is a slight step back. Each cluster is meant to in turn be harder than the previous, and in this sense the difficulty wave fluctuates upwards and should offer some interest and variety.

[cannonball]

SteveD said:

You're right, but I like to ask the question every now and then to sound people out. It's clear from the commentary that a significant number of players and mappers still like a difficulty curve from easier to harder. Even pistol-starters seem to like that, and there also seems to be room for "breather" maps after a really tough one in, say, the middle of a set. I can't remember if id made breather maps, it's so long since I played the IWAD maps except for Knee Deep again and again, and E1M7 is the hardest one there -- not saying much, I know, but I guess I would use Knee Deep as a perfect example of what I would mean if describing maps that are easy, yet interesting and fun.

Well it's best to have a nice difficulty curve as opposed to a difficulty roller coaster which ends in a brick wall of constant death. Only a fool would do that....
Oh wait
:P

[Tarnsman]

I prefer difficulty roller coasters to a curve. Curves get boring. Same with map sizes on a curve. I find it much more enjoyable for a mapset to evolve while still throwing in some nice changes of pace. Scythe 2's blocks are an example I think pretty much every robust (20+ levels) wad should follow when it comes to difficulty and scale.

[Steve D]

Jayextee said:

Well, I didn't mean to Pimp My Shit™ there. But thanks! ^^;

I think the crux of what I'm saying is that whereas I'm finding BTSX a little dry in these early stages, I can kinda see what the team have gone for, because I do kinda the same thing; only perhaps much gentler.

Thanks for dragging this back on topic. ;)

My reaction is quite the opposite. But I guess it depends on what you mean by "dry". For me, I guess I'd call Map03 more dry in "tone" even though, thanks to its traps and action, it was the most fun to play so far. Much of this is because, even though Map03 retains the tech base theme, it doesn't look like a place that could serve any function whatever. I've worked in two different warehouses, and neither of them had those nifty angled lines. The conveyors for product might have snaked and rose and fell all over the place, but the buildings themselves were almost all 90-degree angles. Indeed, probably Map02 looked most like a structure that could perform a useful function. Map01 was the most grandiose, and IMO, the theatrical staging of the entrance to the structure, after you've wandered through the watery caves, is classic stuff. It's probably the coolest structure entrance I've ever seen in a Doom map. From that moment, I was hooked. ;)

[Jayextee]

SteveD said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "dry".

Challenging monsters are used, but the challenge factor isn't there due to the fact that by the end of MAP03 I had an entire armory to play around with, severly reducing whatever 'bite' said enemies could've had. In MAP04, as soon as I heard that first Archvile, BFG was ready so I could zap it in one. Second Archie succumbed to SSG fire because cover was more than ample and it wasn't resurrecting stuff I'd already killed.

I know the BFG and Plasma were secrets and all, but this has seriously bluntened the teeth of this WAD early on. I'm hoping it warms up, because I kinda like what I see (it's definitely beautiful enough!) but it's not really stirring me at the moment.

[Steve D]

Jayextee said:

I know the BFG and Plasma were secrets and all, but this has seriously bluntened the teeth of this WAD early on.

We're on the same page there. The BFG fucks everything up for continuous players. It really should be removed from Map03, and the cells should be tightly controlled for the PG, which I think they are, actually, at least for klutzes like me. ;D

Watching Suitepee play Map26 of RoC, my hatred of the BFG, as a mapper, only intensified, because it made every Archie encounter a breeze. Not to mention that virtually every semi-tough encounter had the BFG as a resort. That's no way to get a high player death count. ;D Then again, another question is, how much death can players take? I usually consider a map tough if I get killed 10 times, extremely hard if I get killed 20 times, and if I get killed much more than that, I try it again at a lower difficulty setting. But I remember that Dave Kramer, who edited MacDoom Review, and was an HMP player, said he didn't like to like to die, he liked to almost die and fight his way back.

[Steve D]

Quite a few more interesting comments on the difficulty curve idea. I like Capellan's graph and also his idea of ebb and flow, which meshes quite a bit with Tarnsman's idea of roller-coaster difficulty. I also like Tarnsman's idea of throwing some short, punchy maps into long sets to avoid constant growth.

As for cannonball, after what he did to me in E2M5 of Concerned, well, the guy is just a sadist. ;D

[Capellan]

SteveD said:

which meshes quite a bit with Tarnsman's idea of roller-coaster difficulty

Honestly, I think most people in this conversation are saying pretty similar things :)

[Jayextee]

SteveD said:

Quite a few more interesting comments on the difficulty curve idea. I like Capellan's graph and also his idea of ebb and flow, which meshes quite a bit with Tarnsman's idea of roller-coaster difficulty. I also like Tarnsman's idea of throwing some short, punchy maps into long sets to avoid constant growth.

I'm in complete agreement here. 9 maps of 900 Deep was a constant curve, but that kind of rhythm is not only hard to maintain as a mapper, it's hard to maintain a player's interest -- so over 30 maps? No. Definitely not the way to go. Again, something I'm doing with Nex Credo; I start each 'episode' (new sky in Doom 2) with a very short level, so far two of them. MAP12 in particular is, without spoiling everything, incredibly short but in a different way that sets a new tone for the second batch of stages. Hopefully.

I personally like a short-and-sweet map thrown in there; if nothing else, but something to 'reboot' my attention span. ;)

[j4rio]

Map 5 - played few times, UV and solo-net, pistol start, glb+

I liked this, pretty much an easy gameplay done in interesting enough way for my tastes. I didn't like that plasma is only flagged for easy in secret (woo I actually found a secret) despite presence of cells in UV. Actually, I didn't like there was no plasma in UV at all because its presence would make the removal of cyb less draggy. I really, really didn't like the very last av usage, pretty much an attempted difficulty raise gone cheap. Cool besides that.

[Tarnsman]

Well all three BTSX episodes are based around a "roller coaster" when it comes to difficulty and/or map-size. Each hub marks the start of a scythe 2 style cluster with the easiest maps of the bunch at the beginning and the hardest towards the end with each cluster progressively getting harder.

[ClonedPickle]

I kinda got ahead on a continuous playthrough and I want to try to actually play along with the club for once, so I'll be running through it again and actually writing stuff down. Pistol starts, UV, ZDoom because I feel like it, and I'll be trying for 100% although I won't go digging through Doom Builder to get it. So!

Oh, and I mean BTSX since I guess there's two this month.

MAP01: Radio Report (100% kills/items/secrets, 9:43, 153% health, 71% armor)
I very much enjoy this intro, honestly. A nice quiet romp from the start to the front door to get you acquainted with the world (or moon?) and then it's right into the action. Barrel placement is fantastic (and I've got UDMX's "AWW SMACK" gib sound in my /skins folder so the more gibs the better) and there's no time wasted introducing mid-tier monsters. I guess some people don't like that, but with the berserk, barrels, infighting, and A Special Secret (love that secret) it's quite manageable. The exit confused me when I first played it a while ago, but now that I get what's going on I like it.

MAP02: Postal Blowfish (100% K/S, 97% I, 8:13, 100% H, 111% A)
BTSX's second impression is a very explosive one. Adding to the always-welcome abundance of convenient barrels is not one but two personal explosive creation devices, in case you needed a clue to use the hell out of rockets. I actually prefer the pistol start method for this map because of that, so I don't stroll into this map with my (hard-earned, granted) SSG, wreck the starting areas, and end the map with 20-30 rockets burning a hole in my pocket. Instead I get to revel in the glory of explosions and not have to worry about packing a few for the next map. The ventilation shaft was also very well used here; I love having the option to rocketsnipe some enemies in future areas to make it easier on myself later.

MAP03: The Room Taking Shape (100% K/I/S, 5:48, 100% H, 0% A)
A solid, quick map. The plasma rifle available within seconds as early as MAP03 sounds silly, but does help with the immediate caco staring you down and the red key fight. The yellow key marks the first key ambush of the wad, which are hopefully as infrequent as they seem to be thus far; and also marks a BFG secret. Which sounds silly, given that it's MAP03, but is definitely helpful for a UV pistol start. The yellow key doors do a stellar job at avoiding backtracking; while that's hardly nothing new, I find these ones are just spectacular at it, given there was already a sneak peek at the exit very early in the map. I like it! The crushers were nice, too, especially as they as much of a threat to the monsters as they were to me, and weren't the instant game over-style crushers.

MAP04: A Good Flying Bird (100% K/S, 93% I, 7:43, 42% H, 35% A)
(still plenty of resources left in the level though, I just got wrecked by a Revenant near the end)
This is probably the first map I kinda wished I wasn't pistol starting when I saw the two mancubbies near the start and two pockets of 3 revenants a bit further in - but a few boxes of shells and a rocket launcher immediately afterwards made me take that back. I didn't mind the red key ambush that much, but I'm not super fond of the yellow one - as brief as it is, it kind of discourages finding the berserk secret, which I adore the amount of map shifting happens to give you access to it. The rest is quite solid, although I find it strange that there's nothing stopping you from backtracking once you get the blue key and going the long way back to the exit area instead of powering through the small gauntlet there besides a convenience of location. But hey, I'm not against it.

Also, the soundtrack thus far is fantastic. Intermission might be my favorite thus far simply because of the Doom 2 intro to subversion, but MAP02's was quite good too as I'm a sucker for rockin' beats... but they're all so good.

[Capellan]

map05
This was a solid level, but nothing about it really grabbed me. There were no vistas that made me stop for a moment to enjoy them, and the fights ... well, I know I can't expect a lot on HNTR, but they tended to reward corner and door abuse, rather than a more "gung ho" style of play. Too often there is really only one way for monsters to get at the player. Monster closets would be the easiest, but not very satisfying, way to make camping less attractive: a better option would be more connectivity and routes to flank the marine.

The cyber is a good example of the play this wad encourages: it's easiest to rush forward, lure the monsters out of the side areas, and rush back to where you started and calmly rocket them from a location the cyber can't reach. Because of where the cover in the area is, you can easily do this without risk from the cyber.

For this encounter to be memorable, it needs to force the player to either be exposed to the cyber, or to the other enemies. Instead it lets you dominate both.

The one 'secret' seems a bit ... not secret.

Edit to add: I do like the way the level wraps back on itself. It's quite clever in that regard.