Steve, people care anyway. Sometimes they don't say anything, sometimes they give thanks, somethimes they get into arguments, sometimes they get offended, sometimes they report differences, and so on.

Of course it's not black and white and there are gray areas. Without them perhaps wad making itself wouldn't have happened (not to mention DeHackEd). But it's always been with a balance of respect, a measure of mutual consideration. And how much respect will be given will obviously depend on the person taking the decisions. The KDiZD, for example, took more care than others in deciding "copyright" considerations, should that be reproached? For example, no one's going to attack Action Doom because KDiZD's licensing is more strict or precise, so why criticize the team? It's like criticizing someone for excessive texture alignment.

Scuba Steve said:
Also, nice job with the Nazi/Hitler reference off the bat.

Thanks! Good ol' Adolf is a most fitting figure for the ranter, you must admit. And keep in mind I was using it in regard to you, a quite civilized and intelligent individual, so I had no concern this would degenerate into flames or personal attacks for merely using a colorful simile.

What's more, I have the impression I read from some philosopher that "Godwin is dead".

Oh, boy! A flamewar in a KDIZD thread! I never saw this coming!

EDIT: this is more of a prediction rather than saying there was flames outright. looks like we will have some flames after all.

But it's not really about KDITZ, and it's not really a flamewar as much as a discussion weather people care or not.

Flaming is being deliberately insulting and hostile, without attempting to be constructive, informative, or persuasive.

Seeing as the people contributing to the discussion aren't being deliberately insulting or hostile, and are variably attempting to be constructive, informative, and/or persuasive, there is no flame war.

You seem to think that I'm insulting the KDIZD team, which is pretty far from the truth and really stretching to misinterpret my comments. actually, I am in support of the team and have been providing them constructive criticism for a while now. That doesn't mean the "team" hasn't done some utterly ridiculous things in regards to the wad. Asking Todd Holenshed about, "What will happen if we violate the copyright of your work?" was incredibly foolish. One, we already knew what the answer was going to be and two, it was asked during a period when the "team" was really trying to promote KDIZD and was looking for a number of ways to show it off. The situation was dumb, someone looked at the idgames FAQ and got wind that modified stuff wouldn't be accepted (even though hundreds have). So worried their mod wouldn't be accepted (it would have) they scrambled to make it legal and in the process, tripped over their own attempt to make it legal by, ironically, making it officially illegal.

Of course people care, obviously you do. But I said nobody important cared... which is true. id and Ty were the only 2 people that matter in this case. id's stance, while not technically known, can be inferred from the fact that thousands of Doom wads violate copyright and they don't do anything about it. Ty on the other hand has allowed plenty of mods that marginally violate copyright to be uploaded. So the important people don't "care".

KDIZD is like the V'Ger probe in Star Trek: The Motion Picture; It had an original base of the shareware levels... but has been so corrupted and modified that there is nothing left of the original.

Scuba Steve said:
You seem to think that I'm insulting the KDIZD team, which is pretty far from the truth and really stretching to misinterpret my comments.

I disagree with your position on "caring"; personally the way I'm treating licensing for the wad I'm working for is close to what they are doing, and I think is that what you were saying, the "who cares", is a mess.

actually, I am in support of the team and have been providing them constructive criticism for a while now.

I don't doubt that.

Asking Todd Holenshed about, "What will happen if we violate the copyright of your work?" was incredibly foolish. One, we already knew what the answer was going to be

It was hardly just that which they asked. I knew the reply they would get, because I had been carefully reading the newest EULA for a while, but I was also aware many people didn't really know or didn't know where to check on id's current stance. There was no danger in the question if they really wanted to go by what id requests, and in general it was a good question for people to read on (not just them, but anyone interested in id's stance).

and two, it was asked during a period when the "team" was really trying to promote KDIZD and was looking for a number of ways to show it off.

That's kind of unfair. I was critical of KDiZD's early overpromotion myself, but aiming for a clean project all around makes sense. Like I said, I can relate, because I'm doing the same thing in that respect.

The situation was dumb, someone looked at the idgames FAQ and got wind that modified stuff wouldn't be accepted (even though hundreds have). So worried their mod wouldn't be accepted (it would have) they scrambled to make it legal and in the process, tripped over their own attempt to make it legal by, ironically, making it officially illegal.

I'm pretty sure it can be uploaded to idgames (that's been dicussed above).

id and Ty were the only 2 people that matter in this case.

You know I disagree here. That kind of legalism is not my friend. It's the one that makes people think it only matters when things are profitable or when "shit hits the fan" (because those are supposely the situations where someone can sue). I mean, sure, one must be careful not to get into problems such as getting sued or bounced from servers and such, but most of our relations are between ourselves, coders, artists, designers, and players. What we write in the text files goes for each other. Naturally it'll extend to id or whoever else applies, but the rest of the community is the first recipient.

id's stance, while not technically known, can be inferred from the fact that thousands of Doom wads violate copyright and they don't do anything about it.

Their stance is their EULA. It doesn't mean they'll enforce it with a cudgel everywhere everyday, that would be a waste of effort and would be damaging, and they'll naturally find allowing the community a good degree of autonomy and selfdetermination beneficial. But if it comes into play, it's their EULA. And if the KDiZD team wants to make an addon that is "ready for anything", they'll also want it to be okay with id. Just like the PrBoom coders want it to be totally GPL compatible.

Ty on the other hand has allowed plenty of mods that marginally violate copyright to be uploaded.

Ty has also deleted many wads, either by personally observing copyright issues, or by receiving reports or complaints. Again, he's not going to be a vigilante, but will act when the circumstances present themselves, according to them.

KDIZD is like the V'Ger probe in Star Trek: The Motion Picture; It had an original base of the shareware levels... but has been so corrupted and modified that there is nothing left of the original.

Ty has always expressed that people should consult with him if they feel they have borderline or dubious cases. He expressed that the "no id based stuff" provision was mainly placed to stall the slight modifications that were common before people really started mapping. He won't reject things that have their own characteristic design, just hacks from the originals and other cheap modifications (in case you doubt my word, you can ask him).

Scuba Steve said:

And don't forget fact #3, nobody gives a flying fuck. Seriously, Ty doesn't care and he'll put it up. id doesn't give a shit and will ignore it. Why do people honestly think there is even one iota of controversy here? If there is ANY, it's because you guys were dumb enough to write to id and ask them for permission.

Just don't touch their precious Doom 3 or beloved Quake 4.

I said:
Ty has always expressed that people should consult with him if they feel they have borderline or dubious cases. He expressed that the "no id based stuff" provision was mainly placed to stall the slight modifications that were common before people really started mapping. He won't reject things that have their own characteristic design, just hacks from the originals and other cheap modifications (in case you doubt my word, you can ask him).

Ah, here's a thread about that subject.

myk said:

Personally, I think screen shots are spoilers to a degree, so smallish or stylized ones aren't really a bad idea.

how is it spoilerish when we all know what episode 1 originally looks like in the first place? if they don't show us shots of the new areas and stick strictly to what we know to be E1, i don't see how that would be considered a spoiler.

dethtoll said:
how is it spoilerish when we all know what episode 1 originally looks like in the first place?

The general layout is known, but every detail or addition will be new.

myk said:

The general layout is known, but every detail or addition will be new

New? Hm.

kristus said: KDITZ

Heh, what's KDITZ? :)

Judging from screenshot thumbnails I'm afraid there'll be so many similarities between KDIZD and Episode 1, that some novelty is going to fail. Let's hope the authors have made (are making) enough modification just to offer something new and exciting.


Onto the screenshots
#1 M1 Entry...looks very alright for a start; I'd put some sergeants in that far tower {odd could be that the tower is already populated, because it's that green armor tower we all know and remember}.
#5 M1 Exterior...I'd add some new machinery and surprises into the former green slime pit.
#7 M2 Exterior...Wow, a humanoid monster really has to come out of that volcano! :)
#10 M3 Nucage...That =O= slime dent really reminds me of a reactor, or a garbage chemical decomposer. Strange graphics could work there for the sake of it.
#21 M6 Room...Sincerely I'd advise against ZDoom style warping liquid terrain. It tends to look like a mosaic or kaleidoscope. Oddly, the SMMU swirling inherited into Eternity looks more natural...
#24 M6 New Area...The light beam coming from a flashlight is a brilliant idea to use in software rendered Doom. Though I expect that to be a mere sprite on a thing flagged translucent.
#26 M7 Entry...What's that, a railway? Is it going to be a cutscene? Will it hurt to step on it should it be a railway?
#27 M7 Platform...Very similar to the original. I'd add new machinery, traps, and properties to make it interesting to explore.
#30 M7 Great Hall...That evil flesh looks rather blocky. I'd slope it once, twice or thrise, and give it an evil acompanying sound, if not even a curse to be cast on the player :)
#34 M9 Door...Also very similar to the original. I'd add steam traps coming off the walls that turn into imp fireballs flying to the activator.

myk said:

The general layout is known, but every detail or addition will be new.

i guess my point is: "so?"

in other words, we already know that KDiZD is detail snuff porn. that's the whole point of the wad. just because the added detail is "new" doesn't mean that we haven't already seen detail (or overdetail) like it before. when i think spoiler, i think of more major additions like new rooms or whatever, not detail.

[edit] what printz said, too.

...and now comes the point in the argument when myk replies to so much shit that you just don't have the time to reply.

dethtoll said:
when i think spoiler, i think of more major additions like new rooms or whatever, not detail.

On the contrary, if a wad is very innovative or different, a screen shot will only give you a vague or partial impression of what you'll get inside. But if it's different in a more subtle way, a screen shot either shows something redundant, or spoils a good part of the novelty there is.

In your case, though, it seems shots won't spoil things for you because you are jaded (there is nothing to spoil in the first place).

Scuba Steve said:
...and now comes the point in the argument when myk replies to so much shit that you just don't have the time to reply.

No point complaining; either reply later when you do have time, or if it's not worth it, just ignore my post.

in the end, shots won't spoil too much for me because i'm jaded. you are right about that.

but there's also this: if you don't want the game spoiled for you, then don't look at the screenshots.

dethtoll said:

in the end, shots won't spoil too much for me because i'm jaded. you are right about that.

but there's also this: if you don't want the game spoiled for you, then don't look at the screenshots.

Yeah, after all, they occupy their own section of the website, one you can conciously avoid.

Hi-res screens or bust.

dethtoll said:
if you don't want the game spoiled for you, then don't look at the screenshots.

Right, I did look at them a bit, just to get a glipse, but not more, and I appreciated that they were small and brownish (so they gave an idea but didn't spoil things).

Any project may have screenshots, just to show the curious how are they gonna look like. If the authors had feared they'd spoil themselves, they wouldn't have shown screenshots.

WHY DO YOU CARE SO DEARLY THAT SCREENSHOTS AS A PRESENCE IS SUCH A BIG DEAL ANYWAY? THEY'RE THERE SO WE CAN COMMENT THEM AND THAT'S ALL!

printz, you can quit shouting now, and I don't "care" about the screen shots, it's merely a reply to the guys that said they wanted big ones, where I said I liked the small ones. Other than that we're just discussing out preferences. If the discussion bothers or hurts you, go take an aspirin, or a walk in the park.

well, they should just show small shots as thumbnails for larger pictures to click on if we so desire. get me?

12 more visible pics are available here: http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=456

(The pics are somewhat old, but only one of the depicted areas has noticeably changed since they were taken.)

NiGHTMARE said:

12 more visible pics are available here: http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=456

(The pics are somewhat old, but only one of the depicted areas has noticeably changed since they were taken.)

More colorful and ever-so-slightly larger, but they're still pretty tiny. :P

Don't show too much it ruins the surprise :p the screens on wip looks really nice if those are somewhat outdated then I'm wondering what it looks like now.

This reminds me. I need to resume taking bets on what season/year KZIZZZ will be released. Who's in?

In most instances I believe the intention of screenshots is to provide a peek at some of what the player can expect when s/he plays the level (in much the same way as a preview is a "snapshot" of a movie). Would that constitute a "spoiler"? Hardly. Many maps are made from dozens of distinct areas, and putting up a handful of screenshots is unlikely to ruin the gameplay experience when those maps are actually released.

Still, to each his own. For those that consider screenshots to be spoilers, the solution is simple - don't look at them. The majority of people, however, seem to appreciate seeing them (and using them to decide if it's worthwhile downloading the map being "advertised").

KDiZD, I guess, needs no further advertising. As a result they can afford not to offer enticements in the form of large and colorful screenshots. As for the new pics that NM linked to, they show off some very nice features of the maps. They could have been larger, however.

ReX said:
For those that consider screenshots to be spoilers, the solution is simple - don't look at them.

That's also a choice to be taken by the designers of the wad. That is, the discussion doesn't have to limit itself to what one would do as a viewer, but also as a fellow wad releaser.

DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR

GGG said:

This reminds me. I need to resume taking bets on what season/year KZIZZZ will be released. Who's in?

Soon. We are in the final testing phase with testers that were not on the team. After this is done it will be released.

myk said:

printz, you can quit shouting now{......}If the discussion bothers or hurts you, go take an aspirin, or a walk in the park.

Oops, did I yell so loudly? Besides, I never take aspirin. I just found that discussion redundant to reply to. I shout like that in R.L. too when people discuss useless topics :)

@GGG: What does KZIZZZ stand for? :P


@NiGHTMARE: Yay, new screenshots...

Nothing to be picky for this time. They look better than the previous ones and they aren't tiny at all.
I hope the monsters are placed efficiently.
Edit: that PDA thing in the first picture makes me wonder how could they make it.