Doom 64 is Doom 3?

Dave The Daring said:

Really? I love the Atari Jaguar version. It started me on the Doom path all those years ago. Are you still working on it?

https://github.com/team-eternity/calico-doom

He last updated the repository 9 days ago, so active enough I suppose.

Seems like most of the console ports of the Original Doom up to a point derive from the Jaguar version in some way, the SNES version is one of the only ones prior to the Xbox era to use the PC's geometry as well as include the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind boss levels. Of course, it isn't so obvious with Doom 64 since it uses levels that were made specifically for it.

Sodaholic said:

https://github.com/team-eternity/calico-doom

He last updated the repository 9 days ago, so active enough I suppose.

It is not officially announced yet and will not be until I at least get the screen rendering :)

Jaxxoon R said:

Aha! That's where you're wrong, the GBA Doom 2 used the Southpaw Engine!

I can read the wiki!

I stand corrected.

MetroidJunkie said:

Well, you can see where you're going far more easily than Vanilla Doom 3 outside of your flashlight.

There are some extremely dark portions of D64. On a shitty little CRT tv of the time, which was all I could play it on, there were times I literally could not see what the fuck I was doing even with the brightness turned all the way up. I never took that as a flaw or something to whine about, it was part of the terror. If you were a Marine navigating your way through a deserted space base that's been left unattended for how many years? odds are there's gonna be some places that are pretty fucking dark. That said, I never really lost my way. I never lost my way in Doom 3 because of the darkness either. You needed a better monitor, same way I needed a better tv in 1997.

Seems that this doom 64/doom 3 topic is a quarterly debate.

Wasn't but a couple months ago I remember this very argument and it ended up being "it was neither... it was actually a entirely different game, The Absolution, at first" that pretty ended the argument.

If I recall correctly, Doom 64 bring so dark was because it was tested on either computer monitors or LCD screens or something of the sort and they didn't catch it until after the game shipped. Which is why the European and Japanese releases had the brightness considerably higher by default. :p

Well that makes sense, cause the default brightness is impossible otherwise.

I never had a huge problem with Doom 64's brightness if I was playing in the dark with the lights off, which is the best experience anyway. Getting back to the OP, Doom 64 does kinda feel like the "real" Doom 3 in that it changed Doom's gameplay in all the right ways while keeping true to the original's spirit. The slower pacing and stronger focus on puzzle elements--not to mention quite a bit more overtly occultist and demonic aesthetics--made for a highly memorable experience. Doom 3, by comparison, had a lot of little problems that added up after awhile. Doom 64's flaws are a bit easier to forgive because the overall experience is tighter.

Face23785 said:

That said, I never really lost my way. I never lost my way in Doom 3 because of the darkness either. You needed a better monitor, same way I needed a better tv in 1997.

I constantly lost my way in Doom 3, even the second time around! It gets too fucking claustrophobic because of the black shadows. For me, at least, I end up having no clue where I am and end up going around in circles. The lack of automap didn't help. It's weird because Doom 3's layouts are actually pretty linear. It's just that, when there's blackness all around you, it's very difficult to build the structure of the level in your head.

GoatLord said:

I constantly lost my way in Doom 3, even the second time around! It gets too fucking claustrophobic because of the black shadows. For me, at least, I end up having no clue where I am and end up going around in circles. The lack of automap didn't help. It's weird because Doom 3's layouts are actually pretty linear. It's just that, when there's blackness all around you, it's very difficult to build the structure of the level in your head.

I could find my way around Doom 3 easily when I played it, however it was not really an immersive game. LMS was what made Doom 3 worthwhile though.

GoatLord said:

I constantly lost my way in Doom 3, even the second time around! It gets too fucking claustrophobic because of the black shadows. For me, at least, I end up having no clue where I am and end up going around in circles. The lack of automap didn't help. It's weird because Doom 3's layouts are actually pretty linear. It's just that, when there's blackness all around you, it's very difficult to build the structure of the level in your head.

This is to do with spacial awareness. If you have shite spacial awareness, you won't be able to build a mental map in your head as well as other people and find your way around as easily. The only game I have serious problems with this is Wolf 3D where everything looks the same and the only differentiation is room decorations.

Quasar said:

Not quite true. It's based on the PlayStation version, which is based on the Jag version. Which while very similar to and at some point based on the PC version, it also has some serious architectural differences too (most of which manifest themselves as bugs or quirks in various ways). The biggest one is the multistage rendering architecture, which even though PSX and D64 have hardware renderers, they still retain to a large degree for scene generation.

I have been working on porting Jag back to PC, and in the process I have found that the gamesim code in 3DO, PSX, and even Doom 64 is about 99% the same. Of all those, Doom 64 makes the most additional changes and tweaks, but they're all minor ones.

Yeah, I noticed many times that PSX Doom somehow felt different from the PC version, not including the more obvious gameplay quirks (health/armor bonuses give 2%, Lost Souls take 1 shotgun blast to kill). Not really big differences, but still noticeable. Besides the Zombiemen dealing more damage, another example I noticed is that the demon, spectre, nightmare spectre are able to bite through constant chainsaw use. Not often, but definitely more than in the PC, if that ever even happens. This one isn't gameplay related, but the chaingun "blinks" during constant use, whereas the muzzle flash remains on-screen in the PC. Whole bunch of little things like this.

EDIT: Don't forget the status bar mug. Damaging floors make him grit his teeth; constant firing of only the Chaingun and Plasma Rifles make him grit his teeth, as opposed to all weapons. Either severe attacks or attacks behind you trigger the OUCH face. No matter how straight on you get attacked by enemies, the marine always seems to turn his head either left or right. Matter of fact, I don't think I've ever seen him with the straight gritting face from an attack directly in front of you.

I wasn't really saying that Doom 64 IS Doom3(like misleading title). Just saying that after Doom 64 was considered successful, in creating a horror atmosphere, the idea of the next Doom(Doom 3) could have also been taken with the new 3D graphics coming then to create a better atmosphere.

Doom 3 WAS completely linear, just so you know. Doom 64 wasn't.

SavageCorona said:

This is to do with spacial awareness. If you have shite spacial awareness, you won't be able to build a mental map in your head as well as other people and find your way around as easily. The only game I have serious problems with this is Wolf 3D where everything looks the same and the only differentiation is room decorations.

Well, even the more complicated maps in Blood, or some of the lengthy user maps for Doom, don't necessarily stump me. I end up navigating just fine for the most part. There's just something about Doom 3's limited view space that trips me up.

Doom and Blood have automaps though, making it a lot easier to figure out where you are. If that's what it is though, whatever then I guess.

Doom 64 wasn't made by ID, so it's not Doom 3 .

Deus Ex Human Revolution wasn't made by Ion Storm so it's not DX3
Thief 4 wasn't made by Looking Glass so it's not Thief 4
Batman Arkham Origins wasn't made by Rocksteady so it's not part of the trilogy of 4 games
Every Wolfenstein game after 3D wasn't made by id so they're not canonical sequels

I think I've made my point

Wolfenstein 3D was never canonical, because it wasn't made by Muse Software.

SavageCorona said:

This is to do with spacial awareness. The only game I have serious problems with this is Wolf 3D where everything looks the same and the only differentiation is room decorations.

This is how I find my way around Wolf3D hilariously enough is my spacial awareness, memorizing room shapes.

What started out as a comparison of Doom 64 and Doom 3 is now about this.

Cyanosis said:

This is how I find my way around Wolf3D hilariously enough is my spacial awareness, memorizing room shapes.

I just use the automap on ECWolf, it's honestly a lifesaver. I'd still be stuck in Episode 2 without it.

SavageCorona said:

I just use the automap on ECWolf, it's honestly a lifesaver. I'd still be stuck in Episode 2 without it.

This is also funny, I played the ECWolf Tech Demo + Expansion and despite the symmetrical copypaste layouts I used the automap constantly because I couldn't tell any of the rooms and hallways apart.

On the topic of the OP, I've always considered D64 to be the third game in the classic trilogy. Both story-wise, and gameplay/content-wise. It picks up where Doom 2 left off, brought back a few of the new monsters, major upgrades in the visual department, and so on. Solid ending to the story, too.

SavageCorona said:

Every Wolfenstein game after 3D Beyond Castle Wolfenstein wasn't made by id Muse Software so they're not canonical sequels

Fixed.

SavageCorona said:

Doom and Blood have automaps though, making it a lot easier to figure out where you are. If that's what it is though, whatever then I guess.

I've been playing through a rather lengthy Blood mod called Death Wish, which has huge fucking levels with a lot of non-linear sections. I hardly ever have to use the map to find my way on there. I dunno. I just don't really get lost in older shooters.

GoatLord said:

I've been playing through a rather lengthy Blood mod called Death Wish, which has huge fucking levels with a lot of non-linear sections. I hardly ever have to use the map to find my way on there. I dunno. I just don't really get lost in older shooters.

Games like this though have more than 90 degree angles, height variation and much more variety of textures and designs possible. Death Wish is fucking brilliant btw, I'd fellate the author if I could.

Gez said:

Fixed.

True but Wolf 3D overshadows those games massively and the later games are based on that game, rather than the original top-down stealth games.

On the other hand, people who say the shitty Syndicate reboot is part of the original series of top-down strategy games are basically wrong. So I guess Wolf 3D pioneered a new series under the same name?

Unless I'm mistaken, Wolf 3D was originally going to be more complex akin to the original game, but was later simplified. Seems to be a recurring theme with ID to start out ambitious and then later simplify into a shooter, given Doom and Quake.

A bit like every my-first-map thread that takes criticism properly.