june gloom Posted December 11, 2017 17 hours ago, MetroidJunkie said: Or you're just an alarmist using the cherry-picked examples as an indictment against cops on the whole. Have you ever actually talked to cops in your local area? I promise you they're human just like you are. Most of these news reports of cops shooting someone down felt threatened for their lives, whether or not it's justified is up for debate but very few cops kill someone because they're having some kind of power trip. Stay where you are, keep your hands where they can see them, and don't make any sudden movements. Being polite helps, too. Of course they're human, and that's the problem. They're prone to biases and irrationality, just like you. (And that's not just a general you, that's also a you you.) If cops are constantly afraid for their lives to the point where they have to dump a clip into the back of a man who's laying prone on the ground then maybe they need to find a safer line of work. 3 Share this post Link to post
AleksB Posted December 11, 2017 Ill give a prime example here. Over the summer i was out on my motorcycle, and i got pulled over while sitting at a red light. The cop turned his lights on and yelled on his radio to stay where im at and shut my bike off. So im sitting there, and he come running towards me with his gun in his hand! I look at him and he just screams at me dont move. At this point im sweating because hes pointinh his gun in my face and i had no idea why. Hes calling for like 3 backup cops. I litterally sat on my bike still as a rock whilr hes pointing his gun in my face. Everytime i would try to talk, he would jist scream shut up, and if i move i would be shot... finally his buddies come and they calmed him down a bit, but be was still on edge. After them talking their police chatter, he ran my plate and gave me a warning for a bent license plate.... them he said that i was lucky that i complied and that he didnt have to make me ve another statistic. How fucked up do you have to be to do what he did and say? I usually wear a helmet with my go pro camera but god i wish i was that night. I reported him, but he only got a day off. We have a serious problem with trigger happy police. Even here in chicago, it is really bad. Not all cops are bad, but as time goes on, it seems we have more and more. Its a very serious problem 5 Share this post Link to post
VGamingJunkie Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dethtoll said: Of course they're human, and that's the problem. They're prone to biases and irrationality, just like you. (And that's not just a general you, that's also a you you.) If cops are constantly afraid for their lives to the point where they have to dump a clip into the back of a man who's laying prone on the ground then maybe they need to find a safer line of work. You really shouldn't use one example to paint such a broad brush, this is where you're coming up short. This cop is a blatant murderer, no question about it except apparently in the legal system for some reason, but many cops are falsely accused because they defended themselves against an aggressive suspect. Of course, location has a lot to do with it. Cops where I live are chill. 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) This wouldn't happen to me at all. I'm the guy that calls the cops. I explain things in general in a clear and understandable manor. * manner *. Plus, I don't look like a threat. So the answer is if this really happened to me... I'd just be myself and amazingly the cops would end up being my friends and do my bidding. Heck here's a story for ya... I took a train into downtown Chicago to take a train outbound to get home. Since it was snowing, the inbound train got there late and I missed my train home. Well like 10 people on the train missed their outbound train and had to wait for rides... just as I did. The officers / security made everyone wait outside in the cold and blizzard while 2 officers watched them to make sure they stayed out in the cold. The doors were locked. They let me stay inside. Then everyone outside dispersed and got their rides, then the 2 officers told me "we're going to leave you here, when your ride comes just walk down that hallway to the office, tell us and someone will unlock the doors for you." Not only did they let me stay in the warm, but they let me stay inside a building without supervision. Anything could have happened with me in a secure building in the heart of the city next to the world's tallest office building. Edited December 11, 2017 by geo 1 Share this post Link to post
AleksB Posted December 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, geo said: This wouldn't happen to me at all. I'm the guy that calls the cops. I explain things in general in a clear and understandable manor. Plus, I don't look like a threat. So the answer is if this really happened to me... I'd just be myself and amazingly the cops would end up being my friends and do my bidding. Heck here's a story for ya... I took a train into downtown Chicago to take a train outbound to get home. Since it was snowing, the inbound train got there late and I missed my train home. Well like 10 people on the train missed their outbound train and had to wait for rides... just as I did. The officers / security made everyone wait outside in the cold and blizzard while 2 officers watched them to make sure they stayed out in the cold. The doors were locked. They let me stay inside. Then everyone outside dispersed and got their rides, then the 2 officers told me "we're going to leave you here, when your ride comes just walk down that hallway to the office, tell us and someone will unlock the doors for you." Not only did they let me stay in the warm, but they let me stay inside a building without supervision. Anything could have happened with me in a secure building in the heart of the city next to the world's tallest office building. You from chicago? 0 Share this post Link to post
june gloom Posted December 11, 2017 38 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said: You really shouldn't use one example to paint such a broad brush, this is where you're coming up short. This cop is a blatant murderer, no question about it except apparently in the legal system for some reason, but many cops are falsely accused because they defended themselves against an aggressive suspect. Of course, location has a lot to do with it. Cops where I live are chill. Do you hear those jet engines flying overhead? That's the sound of you colossally missing the point -- though based on previous interactions with you, you're doing that on purpose because you have no intention of arguing from a position of good faith. I'm frankly amazed they let you back in EE. I don't need just one example. I have hundreds, if not thousands, to choose from. Most of them don't make it into the news. Some do, and bootlickers like you bend over backwards to argue that police violence is "blown out of proportion" and "the media is pushing a narrative," every time. "If they'd just followed the law," you say. "If you'd just done what the officer said," you say. And yet people fucking die anyway despite doing exactly that, and it happens over and over and over again. I'm just going to say this last thing and then I'm going to disengage with you because I've wasted enough time on your reactionary ass. I've met nice cops. I've met chill cops. I've met cops who really seem to care about their community (assuming they even live there.) It changes nothing. All cops are bastards. "Good" policemen do not exist. There are good people, but when they put on that uniform they become what that uniform represents: the status quo, maintained by violence and the enforcement of unjust laws. For every cop who guns down innocent people there are hundreds more who do nothing, say nothing, see nothing. They don't want to make waves, maybe, or they're secretly on the "bad" cops' side, or maybe they're just closing ranks because cops are the biggest gang there ever was, and in the service of the state to boot. Whatever their reasoning, they do nothing to hold their fellow policemen accountable, and thus injustice continues. But sure, they're good people. 2 Share this post Link to post
Vorpal Posted December 11, 2017 4 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said: I'm going to be fair here, this whole event was horrible, tragic yet easily avoidable. That poor guy reached for his trousers that were falling down whilst being held at gunpoint with explicit orders to not make any sudden moves and to keep his hands where they can see them, it was a spur of the of the moment mistake that unfortunately cost him his life. The fact that he reached for his trousers suddenly, where most weapons are typically concealed, it would've been expected that he be shot as he was reported as armed and no officer had been close enough to pat him down and confirm he was not carrying. This should not have happened yet it is understandable that it did, as fucked up as that sounds. Avoidable, by the cop. He created the situation by issuing confusing and strange demands and threats, and many of them, and rapidly. A reasonable course of action would be for one or more guys to "cover" from a distance, and then one brave soul to put his weapon down and get out the handcuffs. 2 Share this post Link to post
Da Werecat Posted December 11, 2017 1 hour ago, geo said: I explain things in general in a clear and understandable manor. Must be good to have a manor. 0 Share this post Link to post
mrthejoshmon Posted December 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Vorpal said: Avoidable, by the cop. He created the situation by issuing confusing and strange demands and threats, and many of them, and rapidly. A reasonable course of action would be for one or more guys to "cover" from a distance, and then one brave soul to put his weapon down and get out the handcuffs. Reviewing the raw footage, I have to agree. His orders were all over the shop, you'd think he'd know how to handle the situation with the necessary precision to disarm the situation effectively. It was evident that the, quite frankly retarded, orders issued in terms of movement were unclear. A simple "on the ground, hands where I can see them" followed by a covered cuffing would have been much more sensible and wouldn't have ended in the guy making the unfortunate mistake he did during the ordeal. It's a shame really. 0 Share this post Link to post
Nevander Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Vorpal said: A reasonable course of action would be for one or more guys to "cover" from a distance, and then one brave soul to put his weapon down and get out the handcuffs. Thinking about it more I agree. This is absolutely what should have happened. The situation was horribly mishandled and now some innocent man is dead because of his incompetence. 0 Share this post Link to post
DooM_RO Posted December 11, 2017 8 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said: m8 life isn't a videogame. There's no such thing as a non-lethal area not to mention that goes against almost all firearms training. When you shoot, you shoot to kill. Well, I don't live in a country obsessed with guns so I wouldn't know. I don't know, what about the feet and arms? One warning shot, one non-lethal and a final warning before killing the perp. And why does it need to be shoot to kill? Shouldn't it be more about disabling the person? 0 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) I like to look at things like this in a logistical fashion. There are presently 1.1 million full-time police officers in the USA. There are about 100,000 part-time officers. There are 323.1 million people living in the USA. There have been 917 civilian deaths as a result of police activity in the last 12 months. Roughly 15,000 known murderers were caught and arrested by police officers in a 12 month period (2016) Let's be extremely, unreasonably generous to the "cops are evil sacks of dung" side of the argument and say half(!) of police shootings in the last 12 months were uncalled for. This is ridiculous to do as the number of murderers alone that cops had to deal with clearly shows they don't simply shoot people on sight, and this is just murderers, not overall violent crime which is exponentially higher, but I'll be generous anyway. The numbers paint quite a clear picture: There is a 0.04% chance that any given police officer will unjustly kill a person in a 12 month period (and that's using the generous 'half of police shootings are unjust' number!). There is a 0.00014% chance that any given civilian will be unjustly killed by a police officer in a 12 month period. Although 917 people were killed due to police activity, there were 15,000 murderers among the general public that were arrested and locked up in 2016, thus preventing them from ruining or ending even more lives. That's just murderers. I'm ignoring grand theft, rape and a veritable fuckton of other crimes that can be inflicted upon a victim thus ruining their fucking existence. Let me present an anecdote as the cherry on this shit sundae of a thread. I had a gun pointed in my face back in 2012. Not by a cop, by a criminal and his partner who had come to rob the store I worked out. They pointed the gun not only at me but at my then-16 year old coworker. It's because of the existence of police that these pieces of shit were caught and locked away. Guess what, the gun was loaded. They pointed a loaded fucking gun at a child. Pieces of shit like this are caught and dealt with by cops. I'd love to see you (or I) try to deal with every fucking potential murderer, thief, rapist etc on our own. The world wall fall into fucking chaos. You need to stop listening to the talking heads that fill your mind full of bullshit. Cops who act out of line need significantly harsher punishments. As it is now they're above the law in many senses and that means the pieces of shit among them run amok. That is bad and needs to be dealt with, like, ASAP. However, the solutions that lie anywhere between "call all cops evil sacks of reprehensible dog shit" and "remove cops all together" are juvenile, retarded, nonsensical horse shit. I pay my taxes and you bet your mother fucking ass that I want armed protection to show for it that I can call when someone robs my house, steals my car, etc. Even if they don't catch the criminal in the act, they usually catch them afterwards when the piece of shit slips up. Yeah, there are mistakes made. 0.0001% of the population loses their life every year, and I'm being as genuine as possible when I say that's fucking tragic and unforgivable, but I have to say that whatever Kool-Aid some of you are drinking is definitely not recommended by leading healthcare physicians. Sources: https://www.fbi.gov/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States http://killedbypolice.net/ why does it need to be shoot to kill? Shouldn't it be more about disabling the person? Guns are a last-resort measure as you can still die from being shot even if no vital organs are damaged. Tazers, pepper spray and batons are there for disabling people who attempt to fight and that's exactly what a cop should be using if they do not feel their life is being threatened. Trigger happy cops need significantly harsher punishments than they are currently receiving in the US. Despite how infinitesimal the likelihood of being killed by a police officer is, the fact that those officers who do it often get away with it or get off with significantly less harsh punishments simply because they are police is simply wrong. It would be nice if all the negative energy was focused on that obvious area where reform is needed rather than turning into a giant whirlwind of "fuck cops they're all bad". That dialogue is simply not productive at all. The moral of the story is that everyone needs to stop listening to retards who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground with a nonsensical, dangerous agenda and instead let the numbers do the talking. I am very sorry to anyone who has been fucked with or otherwise damaged in any way by police activity. However, to those claiming that the police force is an overall bad thing, I must sincerely disagree. It is very, very clearly a net positive for the American people. Edited December 11, 2017 by Doomkid 15 Share this post Link to post
VGamingJunkie Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Honestly, dethtoll, I couldn't come up with a better response than Doomkid if I tried. I agree 100%, Doomkid, obviously there are bad cops and they should be punished to the extent they deserve but to go around acting as though this is typical of the police, that's how you get more violent encounters with the police because that hatred turns into cop killings. Apparently, certain people on here are under the impression that I'm denying the existence of bad cops. They exist and they need to be taken down and given the harshest of sentences for abusing their authority, what I'm against is this overt generalization that causes good cops to be painted in a negative light and now they have a larger bullseye on their backs because of this flat out hatred against cops. 1 Share this post Link to post
fraggle Posted December 11, 2017 20 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said: I'm going to be fair here, this whole event was horrible, tragic yet easily avoidable. That poor guy reached for his trousers that were falling down whilst being held at gunpoint with explicit orders to not make any sudden moves and to keep his hands where they can see them, it was a spur of the of the moment mistake that unfortunately cost him his life. The fact that he reached for his trousers suddenly, where most weapons are typically concealed, it would've been expected that he be shot as he was reported as armed and no officer had been close enough to pat him down and confirm he was not carrying. That's the argument I've read, and to give it credit, it is at least a coherent one: ie. you can see him reaching toward his waist in the video, he was instructed not to do so, and you can argue that "he could have had a weapon there and the officer felt it was a threat to his life". I don't know much about the court case but I have no doubt that this was the argument that was made in court and the reason that the officer walked free. It's also an argument that's complete horseshit, and you just need to watch the video to see why. You have a pumped-up officer shouting orders and threats at a drunk man who's begging for his life. He gives orders which are nonsensical and seemingly impossible to obey (crawl along the floor, with your hands in the air and your legs crossed??). You get the impression that he's maybe even deliberately trying to give the guy contradictory orders in the hope that a slip-up will provide the excuse to end his life. But good luck trying to prove that in a court room. I know there are people who will watch this video and find something to defend, for whom this is a perfect example of "professional" behavior from a police officer. Because his behavior perfectly fits the Hollywood militaristic stereotype of a "badass" police officer, gun drawn, kicking down the door, arresting the bad guy. But the truth is it's a toxic stereotype and a perfect example of how things have gone bad in America's police forces. If you watch this video and don't see the problem then you're not listening and missing the point. The police are supposed to be there to keep the peace. Many of the most effective developments in policing over the past few decades have been where police departments have made deliberate efforts to deescalate, engage with communities, and above all use violence judiciously and minimally. Maybe, once you have a crying man begging for his life at gunpoint face down on the floor with his hands extended, you've made as much use of force as was necessary? Certainly he's no longer a threat. Does he need to be threatened and ordered to crawl across the floor with his legs crossed too? Why? There's nothing professional about policemen shooting people, barking orders or pretending to be soldiers. Police shootings like this ought to be seen for what they really are: failures of process, indicators of deep cultural problems and above all, profound incompetence. 6 Share this post Link to post
mrthejoshmon Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) I've already adressed that fact and are fully prepared to admit that my original post was pretty dumb. 14 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said: Reviewing the raw footage, I have to agree. His orders were all over the shop, you'd think he'd know how to handle the situation with the necessary precision to disarm the situation effectively. It was evident that the, quite frankly retarded, orders issued in terms of movement were unclear. A simple "on the ground, hands where I can see them" followed by a covered cuffing would have been much more sensible and wouldn't have ended in the guy making the unfortunate mistake he did during the ordeal. It's a shame really. What I originally thought of the situation (somebody made a mistake being held at gunpoint) was wrong and it appears that the situation was actually a person who made a mistake after being issued orders that were not only almost incomprehensible but also barked out of an assault rifle dead set on ending him if he didn't comply, of course he panicked and messed up as the officer himself in this instance clearly didn't know how to handle the situation to begin with. 0 Share this post Link to post
UglyStru Posted December 11, 2017 Since nobody on this forum is from America, are officers in other countries just as bad? I hear Russian officers will beat the shit out of you, but how often do they shoot innocent people? 0 Share this post Link to post
GarrettChan Posted December 11, 2017 1 minute ago, stru said: Since nobody on this forum is from America What...? I know in China, since they are really care about human rights or something like that, usually police can only talk to you unless you're extremely dangerous. Therefore, sometimes it makes funny scenarios where the citizens can do some non-reasonable moves, but the police can do nothing about it. 2 Share this post Link to post
fraggle Posted December 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said: I've already adressed that fact and are fully prepared to admit that my original post was pretty dumb. To clarify: wasn't intended as a criticism of you specifically, but there are going to be (always are) a pack of gung-ho morons who watch a video like this and refuse to see anything wrong. It's sick. 9 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said: the officer himself in this instance clearly didn't know how to handle the situation to begin with. On the contrary, I think the officer knew exactly what he was doing and this is what he wanted. He knew the rules and exactly how to pull sadistic shit like this while staying within them. 2 minutes ago, GarrettChan said: in China, since they are really care about human rights Eh? 2 Share this post Link to post
GarrettChan Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, fraggle said: Eh? It's complicated, so no one can explain this thing correctly, or did I use the wrong word? 1 Share this post Link to post
UglyStru Posted December 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, GarrettChan said: What...? I feel like everyone I talk to on here is Eastern European or South American 2 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, fraggle said: police are supposed to be there to keep the peace. Many of the most effective developments in policing over the past few decades have been where police departments have made deliberate efforts to deescalate, engage with communities, and above all use violence judiciously and minimally. Maybe, once you have a crying man begging for his life at gunpoint face down on the floor with his hands extended, you've made as much use of force as was necessary? Certainly he's no longer a threat. Does he need to be threatened and ordered to crawl across the floor with his legs crossed too? Why? There's nothing professional about policemen shooting people, barking orders or pretending to be soldiers. Police shootings like this ought to be seen for what they really are: failures of process, indicators of deep cultural problems and above all, profound incompetence. I want to be as clear as I can here and say I completely agree with all of this. Officers who act this way - like rabid animals, really - need so much harsher punishments than they're currently receiving. The entire justice system is fundamentally flawed really in that we look to permanently lock away criminals rather than threating it as a process of rehabilitation. It's so, extremely far from perfect and I'd like to see the outrage focused somewhere it may actually have some impact. 3 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted December 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, stru said: Since nobody on this forum is from America, are officers in other countries just as bad? I hear Russian officers will beat the shit out of you, but how often do they shoot innocent people? Pretty sure they're not out for blood or to beat you savagely around here. I'm yet to hear about anything more or less similar here in Romania. 1 Share this post Link to post
fraggle Posted December 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, Doomkid said: I want to be as clear as I can here and say I completely agree with all of this. Officers who act this way - like rabid animals, really - need so much harsher punishments than they're currently receiving I agree, because the current reality is that police officers in America today are above the law. You quoted some good statistics in your earlier comment but what you didn't mention is that the incarceration rate for police officers is basically zero. They can do what they want and they get away with it. But "lock away the corrupt cops" can't be the end of it. These are deeper, more systemic issues than "a few bad apples". Part of it is cultural problems within the police forces, part of it is police militarization which still seems to be going on, and there's a connection to the "wars" on drugs and terror which drive these unhelpful notions that police are soldiers fighting on the front line. Plus I'd say that the US in general has an unhealthy obsession with law and order and the use of violence that popular entertainment feeds into and has promoted for decades. I'm not sure how this stuff can really be dismantled: certainly there are no quick solutions and it needs a lot of time and careful effort. 5 Share this post Link to post
Vorpal Posted December 11, 2017 36 minutes ago, fraggle said: On the contrary, I think the officer knew exactly what he was doing and this is what he wanted. He knew the rules and exactly how to pull sadistic shit like this while staying within them. The impression I got as well, it makes my skin crawl when I hear his voice; if he truly felt those hotel patrons were a threat, he would have gunned them down when they entered the hallway, but instead he takes on a mocking tone like a father punishing a child, "you made a misTAKE. You won't make another one" etc. Beyond the twisted desire to punish and humiliate, I suspect there was a significant Cooldude Factor at play. The full video shows the officer in an instructor role towards the other cops. He was going to punish these "randoms" for making him look dumb (they didn't hear his super manly i'm-in-control-obey-me commands from inside their room) in front of his students. Even though the case has gone in and out of court already I have a feeling there will be another chapter to the story. 0 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted December 11, 2017 Cop culture in America is definitely brutal. I recall an instance of a protester literally being gently lifted out of the middle of the road by Australian police a couple years ago - it was quite comical in a bizarre way, really. It's extremely saddening to think that in the US a harmless protester of the same variety would probably have the shit beaten out of him for no reason. The fact that cops are above the law is so wrong and really does need to be addressed - that's why this vague "all cops are shit" narrative bothers me - it totally muddies the issue. There should be a cohesive effort for some police reform and that's difficult to do with all the white noise out there polluting the issue. 2 Share this post Link to post
VGamingJunkie Posted December 11, 2017 That's the problem, generalizing cops allows the bad ones to slip through the cracks. We need to come together and agree that good cops should be protected and bad ones should be punished harshly. When you blur the line between a good cop and a bad cop, the bad cops can use the good cops as cover. 1 Share this post Link to post
MrGlide Posted December 11, 2017 53 minutes ago, Doomkid said: that's why this vague "all cops are shit" narrative bothers me Just to clearify, I don't believe all cops are bad, there are plenty of good ones honestly, but sadly, I feel I'v come across as many asshole power tripping, ready to get aggressive with me as I'v met good ones. Cop reform will damn near impossable. The best thing we're going to get are the chest cams as shown in the video above. 1 Share this post Link to post
fraggle Posted December 11, 2017 48 minutes ago, Doomkid said: The fact that cops are above the law is so wrong and really does need to be addressed - that's why this vague "all cops are shit" narrative bothers me - it totally muddies the issue. There should be a cohesive effort for some police reform and that's difficult to do with all the white noise out there polluting the issue. Yes, although one of the most frustrating aspects of the whole thing is that it's one of those topics that's become almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion about. Because if you say something reasonable like, "I think there might be some problematic aspects of the culture of policing in America" there will inevitably be someone with an us-vs.-them attitude who will take your comment as "attacking our boys who are putting their lives on the front line". Much of it seems to be encouraged by the police themselves. That's why even with a disgraceful video like this one, you still find people bending over backwards to argue the case that the cop did nothing wrong. 3 Share this post Link to post
VGamingJunkie Posted December 11, 2017 1 minute ago, MrGlide said: Just to clearify, I don't believe all cops are bad, there are plenty of good ones honestly, but sadly, I feel I'v come across as many asshole power tripping, ready to get aggressive with me as I'v met good ones. Cop reform will damn near impossable. The best thing we're going to get are the chest cams as shown in the video above. I've always been in favor of Body Cams, not only to catch bad cops but to protect the good ones. They'll have evidence of their innocence. 2 Share this post Link to post
kb1 Posted December 11, 2017 The officer told the guy not to move his hands toward the small of his back, and the guy did it anyway. The time it takes to grab a gun and fire is in the millisecond range. Where the officer messed up was when he failed to cuff the guy in a timely manner, and instead had him crawling. You've got to note that both of them were scared for their life at the time. We don't know the reason why he had the guy crawling - maybe the officer wanted to be far away from the door, which could allow someone else to pop out. It's easy to place blame, but there's probably a bit more to the story than what was shown. 1 Share this post Link to post