Risen3D Sunk

Craigs said:

I know most of you think it's funny, but I think it's kind of a tragedy. I really don't care about the work Graham put into it I'll admit, but all the effort people made to make high quality wads for Risen3D will go to waste. Nobody will ever be able to play them.

You could try them in Doomsday - there a fair chance they will work. DaniJ has done a lot of work on adding Boom compatiblity. If the map needs scripting, then it's a definite no.

myk said:

when Lee Killough decided to discontinue coding Doom stuff

Does anybody still have a link to that long letter he wrote about why he left?

RjY said:
Does anybody still have a link to that long letter he wrote about why he left?

He prefers that it's not online; if you wish to read it you'd have to get it from him.

myk said:

He prefers that it's not online; if you wish to read it you'd have to get it from him.

That's understandable but on the other hand I know it's online somewhere because I can remember reading it in the past year or so. But I can't remember where :(

It was on myk's own site.

It's a shame Lee doesn't want it online, because there is a lot of useful and important stuff in there (technical as well as historical).

Oh well. Can't remember a Risen3d. Or whatever it was called. Ok, doesn't mean it was crap just cause I never heard of it. But at least I won't miss anything then.

"GNU Gestapo" and other mindless blah

If one takes GPL code or code under a similar license then you have to make sure people can get the (modified) source, too, if you start to distribute binaries.
That's the fricken deal! If you care to understand.

If people use unlicensed copies of let's say Photoshop, Maya, or a game, everyone cries about it (most of them hypocritical) and uses words like "piracy", "call the BSA" and further more.
But the GPL is a license (in legal terms!) like any other license. Same validity. And so some brave people DO care and demand access to the source.
And I think it would not have done harm to give access to the code that was once free and planned to STAY free.
It could even have allured developers. And if you're not a Carmack or something then you surely can accept some help here and there.

So I don't unerstand why some people blame a so called "GNU Gestapo". And rms is one fine beard, mkay?

Craigs said:

What exactly is the Killough incident?

I know most of you think it's funny, but I think it's kind of a tragedy. I really don't care about the work Graham put into it I'll admit, but all the effort people made to make high quality wads for Risen3D will go to waste. Nobody will ever be able to play them.

Um people probably have risen3d on thier harddrives which they could release..

and if anyone says "BUT WACKY WE DONT HAVE THE SOURCE CODE LOL SO WE CANT LEGALLY RELEASE THE SOFTWARE" I will kick you in the nuts.

Person 1: "we can't play the levels made for risen3d anymore because the project is dead"
Person 2: "its ok I have the binaries on my comp! I'll upload them!"
Person 1: ">:O you cant do that, the software is opensource but we don't have the source code! therefore unless you want to slash your way through a legal tangle of vines and overgrowth with the magical machete of NOT GIVING A SHIT you won't be able to legally release the program! like I said the levels can never be played again :("

*cough* Strife *cough* I'm pretty sure it's technically illegal for us to all download that game but it falls under a pseudolegal category called ABANDONWARE.

Note, I have nothing against open source, and support it, but now that the project is dead who cares if its released by some guy who had a copy so people can play old levels with it?

insertwackynamehere said:

*cough* Strife *cough* I'm pretty sure it's technically illegal for us to all download that game but it falls under a pseudolegal category called ABANDONWARE.

I bought Strife, so NYAH!

insertwackynamehere said:
*cough* Strife *cough* I'm pretty sure it's technically illegal for us to all download that game but it falls under a pseudolegal category called ABANDONWARE.

Why, some site associated to the community is warezing Strife registered?

But yes, that's a parallel example, and neither is allowed on places that respect copyrights.

myk said:

Why, some site associated to the community is warezing Strife registered?

But yes, that's a parallel example, and neither is allowed on places that respect copyrights.

yeah but on places that respect REALITY which is that rules can be bent for the betterment of society, they are.

Quit your fucking blubbering.

The authors wholly and completely brought this on themselves. Ever since the source relase code has almost always been made public, so as to benefit the community. In the REALITY of this community it already miffs people when a port author doesn't release the source to his port, but it really miffs people when they break copyright doing so. Back to REALITY a group of other source port authors finally decided to stop NOT GIVING A SHIT (are you catching on to the use of caps) about Risen 3D not handing out the soures, and just plain asked them to do it. The last bit of REALITY thats relevant to what happened is that the Risen 3D team killed their port and nobody else. There was no rule here being broke to the betterment of the doom community, it was just being broke to protect some mongs who cant be bothered to archive what they compile with and upload it.

So instead of having a spastic fit here why don't you contact the people responsible about being able to (legally or not since you don't seem to care) use the binaries for Risen 3D

insertwackynamehere said:

yeah but on places that respect REALITY which is that rules can be bent for the betterment of society, they are.

this is a really dumb comment

Well done community! We can't let these little guys get away with stuff like this.

Whats invader zim?

Grazza said:

It was on myk's own site.

It's a shame Lee doesn't want it online, because there is a lot of useful and important stuff in there (technical as well as historical).

Myk is only refering to "why i left doom.htm" which was a comprehensive description of the events which led to him quitting Doom. You can find Killough's old website at http://rome.ro/lee_killough/

Yes, that's what I'm saying: I think "Why I Left Doom.htm" contains a lot of useful and important stuff.

Risen3D was the same thing as Doomsday for me.

Go Gzdoom! [/fanboy]

edit: oh wait isn't deepsea's 3d mode fucked over now?

BlackFish said:

Risen3D was the same thing as Doomsday for me.

Go Gzdoom! [/fanboy]

edit: oh wait isn't deepsea's 3d mode fucked over now?

I think Deep has some explaining to do.

Hasn’t this happened before? I could have sworn rised3d was going to shut down because of people "not caring about its development".

Whatever, I prefer legacy over risen 3d anyway.

Csonicgo said:

I think Deep has some explaining to do.

He certainly does. Somehow, he was given access to the Risen3D code to make his R3Dedit (which also ships with a modifed glbsp without source).

How is it that he gets access to the source, yet no one else does ?. Graham Jackson does not have the authority to relicense the Doomsday code in there for R3Dedit to be a proprietry application.

So, i demand the source to R3Dedit now!
And i am most certain that i can demand the source to DeepSea too.

So deep, release the source or someone will sue your lousy ass!

EDIT: ... deep rhymes with the German word Dieb.... cool! ^_^

It also rhymes with Neep, which is the scottish word for 'Turnip'.

Hoo boy here we go again...

I'll be this is going to be in "The Community is Falling 3"
You'll have to hack into Grahaams PC and steal the source code for Risen 3D so that the port will be saved!

there always will be material for the CIF series.

okay, so people are bitching at me for saying that you COULD just get the binaries. because theres no source code. let me clarify.

When people say "none of those risen3d wads can be played again" that would imply Risen3d is gone. Dead. Kaput, with no trace. It IS dead, but there are traces. If you are SO desperate to play the wad, then you could probably get a Risen3d binary. It's not like they arent out there is my point.

Also, I may be wrong, but to the best of my knowlegde, the GPL states that the person has the RIGHT to the source. Now, this COULD be interpreted to mean that if the person just wants the binaries, then it doesn't matter if the source code exists or not because its never reached that point. For example (in pseudocode):

Person wants Risen3d
Person downloads binaries
Person is informed that he or she has a right to the source code
If person doesn't want the source code Then It doesnt matter
If person does want the source code Then there is a legal issue

Now lets assume the people who still want risen3d dont want the source code, because they just want the binaries to run levels. That entire section of the GPL is meaningless because it was never reached. Its like an if/else statement in a program, it doesnt matter how much code you put into an else statement if the if statement is satisfied first. It is skipped over. Thats just my interpretation at least.

Finally, ignoring all the legal crap, I think it's stupid that this is STILL an issue, seeing as how the stupid GPL arguments are what got us into this mess anyway. Oh yeah, and for the record skulltag doesnt have a source release either, why don't you go try to shut them down as well if you care so much about technicalities and legalities? Of course, you all know that you won't because that would upset people in the community.

The GPL was created as an anti-EULA. Many people argue that now it has become more of a hindrace to development and was only good back when Linux was first released. I think that the main point of it's creation is being missed and it's turning into just another legal thing to fight over which was most definitely NOT what the creators had in mind.

wacky just reading one of your posts makes me want to kick your balls

darknation said:

wacky just reading one of your posts makes me want to kick your balls

I'm guessing that's why he has the custom member title. :)

insertwackynamehere said:

Now lets assume the people who still want risen3d dont want the source code, because they just want the binaries to run levels. That entire section of the GPL is meaningless because it was never reached. Its like an if/else statement in a program, it doesnt matter how much code you put into an else statement if the if statement is satisfied first. It is skipped over. Thats just my interpretation at least.

You cannot ignore any portion of the GPL because it is meaningless to you. The terms of the license say that the program's binaries must be released with its source code. It doesn't matter if you or anybody else thinks that no one will want to look at the source.

Oh yeah, and for the record skulltag doesnt have a source release either, why don't you go try to shut them down as well if you care so much about technicalities and legalities? Of course, you all know that you won't because that would upset people in the community.

Skulltag is based on ZDoom which uses the BSD license, which DOES NOT REQUIRE the source to be released. ZDoom is a bit of a licensing mess anyway, because it includes Raven code, Build code, and Doom code, which are all under separate licenses.

The creator of the GPL had one thing in mind: to give freedom to users and developers. Not releasing the source code to a supposed GPL program impinges on that freedom given to the users through the license.

No one is forced to use the GPL unless they use or incorporate GPL-licensed code. You're free to release binaries under the BSD license with no source, put your code in the public domain, or create your own proprietary license.

Likewise, the Risen3D team was not forced to shut down. They could have just as easily released the source code.

insertwackynamehere said:

The GPL was created as an anti-EULA. Many people argue that now it has become more of a hindrace to development and was only good back when Linux was first released. I think that the main point of it's creation is being missed and it's turning into just another legal thing to fight over which was most definitely NOT what the creators had in mind.

No. The GPL was created to form a basis for the Free Software movement. The only people arguing that it is a hinderance to development are people like Microsoft, who find it an inconvenient challenge to their business model. They would, given the opportunity, take free software, package it, "embrace and extend it", and then sell it as their own and make billions of dollars off of it. If they could. Because of the GPL, they can't do that. Of course this is going to upset them, and get them to spend a couple million on anti-GNU propaganda.

The main point of its creation is to keep software free. Software cannot be free unless the source code is available. And free software writers cannot be secure and comfortable with what they do unless ALL products derived from their work remain open. To suggest that it should be ok to steal someone else's work is basically clueless.

I don't think you understand what RMS had in mind when he created the GPL at all. Have you even read the GNU Manifesto? Probably not.