Why do people say plutonia is hard?

[ReaperAA]

7 hours ago, Mr. Alexander said:

To this point, I recently recorded a demo of Ghost Town on HMP for a friend of mine to show him how to beat it from a pistol start, and was shocked at how little difference there was between HMP and UV. It's nearly the same map with only a few monsters subtracted and a Hell Knight swapped in for a Baron of Hell, nowhere near the kind of thorough rebalancing you get in Sunlust, nor the brute proportional subtraction you get in Doom and Doom 2. Ghost Town could be an outlier in this regard, but I also found that Congo wasn't all that different on HMP either.

 

7 hours ago, Shepardus said:

I checked the stats for Aztec on the Doom Wiki since that was where my first playthrough of Plutonia stalled, and that map is exactly the same on HMP and UV, and even HNTR only has one fewer arch-vile and one more hell knight.

 

Yeah Plutonia isn't very good at skill balancing. Given that Plutonia was developed in a span of like 4 months, that makes sense.

 

There are at least a few maps that don't have any difficulty settings balance at all. Go 2 It, Slayer and Tombstone have no difficulty settings whatsoever. Hunted is same on HMP and UV. A good deal of other maps in Plutonia that are almost similar on HMP vs UV (if not all 3 difficulties).

So basically, if there are new players who play Doom 1, Doom 2, TNT etc. on lower difficulties, they would find Plutonia to be a even bigger of a jump in difficulty than those who played the iwads on UV

Edited July 21, 2023 by ReaperAA

[Akagi666]

I played Plutonia right after playing Doom and Doom 2 and found it difficult, but it also made me much better at the game (I did UV, saveless, pistol start.) After playing more PWADs and going back to it, it felt pretty easy.

[ImproversGaming]

As one of the original games it stood out in difficulty for me and I suspect it was tough for its time.

In general I found that heavy use of hitscan (particularly chaingunners) and fiendish methods to deploy them were a key element. Many maps punishingly introduced enemies, like using closet traps or lockin traps where they suddenly appear. As a blind playthrough it is particularly tough.

Even the maps with lower numbers of enemies could be tough and archviles and cyberdemon were more commonly used. There were also notably maps with much larger enemy counts.

I really like The Plutonia Experiment but I get why it has a reputation for being tough - that was the mantra of the Casali's, to provide a challenge to experienced players. However, it is fair to say that by modern standards there are much tougher WADs now.

[Dreamskull]

Some guy walks in and claims it isnt hard and youre justifying to him what doesnt need to be justified. It IS hard. That word is still accurate to what it happens to be.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Deadwing]

It's hard for the average player that has only played IWADs + not many pwads, but in a difficult scale would probably be like 2/5 if not less than 2.

[T-Rex]

When will this debate over Plutonia's difficulty ever stop? I mean, yes, nowadays there are wads that are much more difficult than Plutonia, but given how people judge it by today's standards they make it seem like it's doable for even casual players, even MtPain27, no disrespect to him, but I felt he was a bit biased and made it sound like it was accessible for the amateurs, and others kinda took his word as the gospel. Simultaneously, he harshly criticised Hell Revealed as being an unfair and bad megawad that should never be played again, when to me, much as others would disagree, I don't really see that much of a difference.

 

I'm going to make things clear, however, that I'm not saying that Plutonia and Hell Revealed play like each other, but the challenges they deliver are executed in a way that make them equally as difficult, even if Hell Revealed delivers higher body counts than Plutonia. The thing with Plutonia is that you have to find the golden mean, and you cannot deviate from it, otherwise you'll just keep dying over and over again. Dario and Milo Casali knew what they had with the Doom engine, the level of meanness with the design and monster placement and they took full advantage of it. Like, because of the types of monsters they use, and where you face them, with many of the levels having compact layouts with cramped sections that give the monsters an edge over you, you need the right strategy and the right arsenal to make it through the combat scenarios, and there's also the ambush teleport traps, the regenerating chaingunner turrets via hidden arch-viles, along with even some of the levels having little to no differences in the monster placement when playing your desired difficulty setting (Go 2 It has the same monster count and placement in all difficulties, for example), that Plutonia was deliberately designed to be sadistic, chaotic, cruel and punishing with no signs of easing up through all of the levels, and considering how Dario stated that Plutonia was made to be the ultimate challenge for the veterans who just beat Doom 2 on Ultra-Violence, I don't think any of the claims of it being hard is hyperbole.

 

Hell Revealed, while I will go on and say that to play that wad gets you acquainted with Plutonia and other similar wads of the time, I'll also say that the converse is not true. Although Yonatan Donner and Haggay Niv had started creating Hell Revealed long before Plutonia began development, they only released the first episode in June 24, 1996, so not long after the release of Final Doom, and even so, it played a lot differently from what the full megawad would present. Two levels in the episode are different and don't offer the intensity of what HR is notorious for, while Underground Base had a much lighter monster placement; no cyberdemons, no spider masterminds; no groups of barons or revenants, etc., a far cry from the ballbuster it became in the complete version of Hell Revealed, so there's not a single doubt that as Yonatan and Haggay continued its development afterwards, they might have already played Final Doom, especially Plutonia, and decided to use and expand on its ruthless style of gameplay, to a greater scale, of course. With the exception of a few maps where you must really play your cards right and find the strategy to get you out of merciless situations like in Last Look at Eden and City in the Clouds, Hell Revealed for the most part allows you multiple ways to tackle its challenges, which makes it not really as overwhelming as many make it out to be. The problem is, a lot of players go right for pistol-start on Ultra-Violence, something I strongly discourage anyone to do until you know its tricks, and because of that, many write off the wad as "awful," "unplayable," "sloggish," etc. The most important rule in playing Doom: if a wad or megawad proves to be too much for you on Ultra-Violence, there is absolutely no shame in playing on lower difficulties. Heck, even Dario Casali himself had stated that's what a lot of players should do when playing Plutonia if they find Ultra-Violence to be that hard, and he, on his now archived personal website, has described how the difficulty settings plays for Plutonia:

 

Skill 5 (Nightmare) - OK, so not even the level authors can do it on this...

Skill 4 (Ultra-Violence) - Only for the Doom Gods out there - Skill 4 is EXTREMELY tough.

Skill 3 (Hurt Me Plenty) - Probably what most people will play on, this still tests a Doomer's talents to the max.

Skill 2 (Hey, Not Too Rough) - Still quite tough, probably on par with the original game on Skill 4.

 

So I trust his word on that, and I can imagine he even means it on continuous play, considering that back in the day of Doom's prime, playing continuously was the standard way of playing Doom, and nobody ever thought of attempting pistol starts for every map as in all seriousness, starting with a pistol on a later level is the result of dying and you have to try it again, which is more like a penalty since that means being ill-equipped with the challenge now jacked up. Bottom line, no matter how much better you are at Doom and played other wads that are far more difficult than Plutonia like Sunder, Sunlust, and others of that calibre, there's no denying that Plutonia still remains as the hardest Doom wad to be released by id Software with a harsh difficulty curve that goes all the way to the top and doesn't let up until you're finished. There is a slight increase in difficulty from Doom (including Thy Flesh Consumed) to Doom 2 and to TNT Evilution, but to Plutonia, even from TNT, is a rather steep incline. It is to Doom what Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels is to the Mario series. Even on ITYTD/HNTR, like Dario said, Plutonia is relentless. I hate to compare Plutonia to HR again, given I know there must be many out there tired of hearing me ramble and praise a wad I feel gets a lot of undeserved hate, but while I do agree that barons are not really meant to be used as hordes, Plutonia has done that with Go 2 It, and TNT even had a map (Mill by Dario) that consisted of an unusual number of barons, and those baron groups are often in places where they can infight with other enemies (examples include the opening of The Black Towers with the revenants in the fountain and the chaingunners and you can get the barons to infight the cyberdemons that get released from the Baphomet cubes, Cyberden style, and the teleporting barons in Judgement Day are actually useful for the frozen cyberdemon that gets released after grabbing the red key as you can coax them all into the circular hub area). I feel that somehow MtPain27's review of Hell Revealed pretty much started a hate train towards the megawad. As much as he is entitled to his opinion, that's what it really is and not facts about Doom wads as depending on who you ask, some may enjoy Hell Revealed for what it delivers, a series of tough levels that rival if not surpass Plutonia, and I'm one of them. I also find Go 2 It to be much harder than Resistance is Futile and nearly matching Post Mortem because no matter what difficulty you pick, all the enemies are the same, while in even the most difficult HR maps, you'll face no more than 3 cyberdemons on ITYTD/HNTR, and 8 on HMP. Maybe it could be because I play it on HMP. and continuously that I don't find it so difficult, but while I play other Doom wads on Ultra-Violence, I stick with Hurt Me Plenty for the hard wads like Plutonia, Hell Revealed, Alien Vendetta, etc. as while I've played Doom for years, I'm more of a casual player and not a hardcore Doom God.

 

I know I've said a lot and maybe have gone off on a tangent, but this is something I wanted to have my say on, since by seeing many players claiming Plutonia to be "moderately difficult" or being barely harder than TNT, they are downplaying its notoriety as an official Doom IWAD back in its day, the intentions of Dario and Milo Casali, and its influence on mappers who clearly used their gameplay style as models for their own projects, mappers such as Yonatan Donner, Haggay Niv, Andy Johnsen, Erik Alm, Gusta and Method would not have made their respected megawads if it weren't for the Casali Brothers pioneering and bringing to the forefront crazy hard levels, something which they even experimented on during and before Plutonia. With TNT, their style of gameplay was more or less established, but it seemed like they had to ease it up a bit in order to make it doable for amateur players while in Plutonia they went all out as there's no way Ty Halderman would ever accept something like Hunted, Cyberden or Go 2 It into Evilution.

Edited July 22, 2023 by T-Rex

[Zulk RS]

17 hours ago, CAM-7EA said:

Plutonia was always intended on being designed around the idea that the player already completed Doom 2 (and probably Ultimate Doom, though more so Doom 2), and the spike in difficulty is to challenge the more seasoned players.
 

Do people exaggerate the difficulty a bit? Probably about as much as people exaggerate how terrible they find TNT to be. This is the internet after all. Even the slightest inconvenience can be made out to be the end of the world as we know it. 
 

Honestly, I wonder how someone who’s first exposure to Doom was Plutonia or TNT feels about them compared to those of us, myself included, who played them after we had already completed Doom and/or Doom 2. I assume this is a rare occurrence, but there’s likely at least someone who went through such an experience. 

 

I don't know if this actually counts but I kinda sorta fit this?

 

The thing is, TNT was technically the first Doom game I ever played. The problem though was that I was too young to even realize what it was and for it to be anything more than a distant memory. I think when I played it, I had just learned how to read or was still learning how to read because I called it "Doom 1" because I thought "This is Doom and obviously this is the first Doom game!" I remember panicking on the first level because it was "insanely difficult"

 

The first Doom game I played after I actually was old enough to know what was happening and what I was playing was "Doom 2". Actual Doom 2.

I remember saying "It's so weird they made Doom 1 so much harder than Doom 2". I was also really confused when I did get around to playing Ultimate Doom or the real Doom 1 and seeing "Why... is this so easy and why is it so different from what I remember?"

 

Then of course I encountered TNT and I immediately recognized the first two levels and went "So THIS is what I had played."

 

As for how I feel about them? I don't like Plutonia. I like TNT and it's probably my favorite of the 4 IWADs (though not the one I played the most. That would be Doom 2)

[Eurisko]

Because it is. 

[RataUnderground]

Its because has a lot of cheap bullshit moments in the first maps in UV.

You died because you didn't know the map, not a lot of fun.

[Maximum Matt]

I just wanna say, Odessey Of Noises on HMP has an aracnotron instead of a cyberdemon, which makes that big canyon part way too easy - instead of using the cover to not get a rocket to the forehead and trying to encourage infighting with the mancubi to get the bastard's health down, you can simply take out the problem with two rockets and you're done.  At least Romero kept the cyberdemons on all difficulty levels Thy Flesh Consumed /rant over

[T-Rex]

4 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

I just wanna say, Odessey Of Noises on HMP has an aracnotron instead of a cyberdemon, which makes that big canyon part way too easy - instead of using the cover to not get a rocket to the forehead and trying to encourage infighting with the mancubi to get the bastard's health down, you can simply take out the problem with two rockets and you're done.  At least Romero kept the cyberdemons on all difficulty levels Thy Flesh Consumed /rant over

Although the cyberdemon on the island surrounded by the crater is a nuisance on UV while the arachnotron is very much trivial, it is the least of my worries when I tackle Odyssey of Noises, as you have to be mindful of the snipers that can catch you unawares, many of which are of course chaingunners and revenants, and also watch out for monsters that can sneak up on you as many of them come from areas that open up after you do something, notably collecting keys, and they are alerted when you open fire. To add to that, these kinds of traps and the snipers are everywhere in the map, so it's really a matter of checking your surroundings, knowing where and when the monsters will appear and being very careful not to be distracted while fending off the onslaught, as that could spell big trouble since the monsters hit really hard.

Edited July 22, 2023 by T-Rex

[ＤΞＬＴΛ]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:51 AM, Matthias (LiquidDoom) said:

Where are the revenants?

[RDETalus]

Do you guys think it's possible, with enough practice, for a 6 year old to beat plutonia?

Like if I start my baby off at 3 years old, 3 years later, try plutonia

[Akagi666]

50 minutes ago, RDETalus said:

Do you guys think it's possible, with enough practice, for a 6 year old to beat plutonia?

Like if I start my baby off at 3 years old, 3 years later, try plutonia

Considering that most of it is just routing and knowing how to deal with each monster, probably.

[Zulk RS]

1 hour ago, RDETalus said:

Do you guys think it's possible, with enough practice, for a 6 year old to beat plutonia?

Like if I start my baby off at 3 years old, 3 years later, try plutonia

 

Considering your 3 year old probably has no idea what the heck is happening, I would say no. However, if you start off at 6 or 7 then yes.

[Lucius Wooding]

2 hours ago, RDETalus said:

Do you guys think it's possible, with enough practice, for a 6 year old to beat plutonia?

Like if I start my baby off at 3 years old, 3 years later, try plutonia

 

Sure but they'll probably have to rely on baby strats.

[kalensar]

By the time you're on map06 then it's gone full steam.

 

On UV there is over 4000 revenants or higher. For comparison, a person with good eyesight can count 6000 unique stars over the entire sky from both hemispheres. Me explaining the Civvie 11 joke on the matter.

[coderamen]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:21 AM, BUYXRAYS said:

Recently, I started playing The Plutonia Experiment on Hurt Me Plenty.

I was hoping for a difficult challenge. And although it is, many people said that it was terribly difficult.

Why do people say that? For me, it isn't that bad.

Because it's hard goddamnit. I die on the first level multiple times per attempt.

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

The first level is impossible for me on nightmare and on UV its just really really hard

[TheCaneOfTheTophat]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:08 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

Except this was already a thing way before even YouTube. But yes lets blame wellknownFunny UTub man.

Keyword: "something to do with". I'm stating he's part of the phenomenon especially in these present days, not that he's the entire cause of the phenomenon. I am well aware people considered it hard before Civvie's existence.

That said, you should always blame Civvie anyway :p

[Gougaru]

Its hard in terms of official release and a good challenge for most new players.  If you want to spice up your plutonia experience give it a go on uv plus ( solo net)

[Stupid Bunny]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:08 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

Except this was already a thing way before even YouTube. But yes lets blame wellknownFunny UTub man.

Right and even funny utubman points out up top that it’s no longer that hard by modern DooM mapping standards. I mean I knew Plutonia was going to be next level within five minutes of the first time I started playing it and that was before I knew thing one about it from anywhere—pretty sure I hadn’t even discovered the Doom community by then and YouTube wasn’t a thing then either. And even if it’s not as hard as many pwads now it’s still certainly hard for me, and that first impression doesn’t go away so easily (especially since I haven’t revisited it in a good while).  And since it set a very early standard for higher-challenge level design the sỹnonymity of the name with difficulty has stuck too.

[LuzRoja29]

 

[espilka]

Because OG Doom II is the baseline.  Just because you're too good for it, and someone makes even harder maps to satisfy you, doesn't change that fact.

[xScavengerWolfx]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:50 AM, xScavengerWolfx said:

I found the quote i was looking for from Dario. This is the quote he said while giving an interview with some one on the 5 years of doom.

 

The qoute goes as follows:

 

Interviewer:

A lot of people found Plutonia much too hard for them (Archviles in the first level, etc) and so stuck to Evilution.  What's your reaction to that?

 

Dario:

Plutonia was always meant for people who had finished Doom2 on hard and were looking for a new challenge. I always played through the level I had made on hard, and if I could beat it too easily, I made it harder, so it was a challenge for me. I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone who plays Plutonia on hard skill and complains it's too hard. I had a lot of mail from people who had never even tried the easy skill setting because they "only play on hard". However, if someone does play Plutonia on easy and still finds it too hard, play Evilution through, and you should be ready to play Plutonia...

 

I still respect this man and i use this quote for some of my maps. If it's too easy, make it harder.

Woah, i didn't expect this many people to react to this and it's a popular as well? Huh, i mean Dario is right after all.

[Reigada]

5 hours ago, Gougaru said:

Its hard in terms of official release and a good challenge for most new players.  If you want to spice up your plutonia experience give it a go on uv plus ( solo net)

 

some maps in solonet are just pure evil, like Go 2 It with the extra 22 cyberdemons

[Zulk RS]

42 minutes ago, Reigada said:

 

some maps in solonet are just pure evil, like Go 2 It with the extra 22 cyberdemons

 

Excuse me... 22?

[Retro_Roy132]

chaingunner

[xScavengerWolfx]

2 minutes ago, Retro_Roy132 said:

chaingunner

Chaingunners are super overrated in Plutonia, Arch-Vile's is where it's at my man

[Retro_Roy132]

*hitscan