Your thoughts on the "No rest for the Living" episode for the Xbox live arcade Doom 2

[40oz]

hardcore_gamer said:

giving homage to a secret boss map in Doom 64 called "cat and mouse" unless I am mistaken that looked and played very much the same.

my thoughts exactly.

[Snakes]

Maes said:

I think that text was a deliberate attempt to sound like the Doom Comic without going over the top. Come on, if you had a chance to write an intermission text for an OFFICIAL id product, wouldn't you take the opportunity? ;-)

Given that the names of the achievements are largely taken from the comic, this wouldn't surprise me one little bit.

[40oz]

Also:

THIS RIDE IS CLOSED.

is a pretty sick line.

[TheCastle]

One thing to note about the overall challenge of ultra violence. It was in fact a deliberate design decision for us to almost exponentially increase the challenge of each difficulty. We wanted to make sure that hardcore doomers would have something that reminds them how badass they are while not making the game unplayable by Joe normal.

So keep in mind when you play, the gradient in challenge per difficulty setting is much larger than in previous iterations of doom. And if UV is kicking your butt that is probably why.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

@TheCastle: Did you make some of the maps in the new episode? I haven't played them yet, but you should check this out:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/50768-doom-2-second-run/

See how badass you really are! I'll try the new episode soon. Also, I'd love to see someone try "Hell Revealed" on the 360 if it's possible to get in on there.

[kristus]

hardcore_gamer said:

Excuuuuuuuuusse me!

I own Doom on almost half a dozen platforms! As well as the PC and the Xbox version of both Doom 3 and RE. I can't even count the number of times I have played this game.

E-peen size is srs bzns.

[hardcore_gamer]

TheCastle said:

One thing to note about the overall challenge of ultra violence. It was in fact a deliberate design decision for us to almost exponentially increase the challenge of each difficulty. We wanted to make sure that hardcore doomers would have something that reminds them how badass they are while not making the game unplayable by Joe normal.

So keep in mind when you play, the gradient in challenge per difficulty setting is much larger than in previous iterations of doom. And if UV is kicking your butt that is probably why.

So you were a member of the development team?

Well, if the episode was indeed intended to remind me of how badass I am then I guess it did a good job.

But that doesn't mean I intend to forgive you for that one agonizing moment where I was literally killed 2 meters away from the exist switch after a long bloody struggle because a revenant rocked fired by some revenant off-screen fallowed me into the exist chamber :(

The maps them self's were still well designed though, so kudos to you I guess.

[TheCastle]

hardcore_gamer said:

So you were a member of the development team?

Well, if the episode was indeed intended to remind me of how badass I am then I guess it did a good job.

But that doesn't mean I intend to forgive you for that one agonizing moment where I was literally killed 2 meters away from the exist switch after a long bloody struggle because a revenant rocked fired by some revenant off-screen fallowed me into the exist chamber :(

The maps them self's were still well designed though, so kudos to you I guess.

Yeah im one of the designers.
What map did that happen btw? just wondering :)

[hardcore_gamer]

TheCastle said:

Yeah im one of the designers.
What map did that happen btw? just wondering :)

I don't remember the name of the map. It also wasn't a huge big of a deal since I had actually saved my game a few moments earlier.

I guess its the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" feeling that I felt after getting killed so near the exist switch that made the moment so memorable.

Anyways, now that I have taken a second look at the episode on hurt me plenty I feel I may have been overly harsh with my criticism at the start of the thread since I think the episode plays considerably better (moments like the one I described and getting killed by something you can't even see did not occur as often) on HMP then it does on UV.

I think its a fun episode overall, but I still think the later levels could have used more texture variety since staring at the same old red hell/brick textures over and over got boring really quickly. The final boss map was also somewhat underwhelming. My favorite map would probably be the first map of the episode called The earth base, it was a cool and a entertaining tech base map and the best map in the episode in my opinion.

The original rating was a 6/10, I now think it deserves at least 7.5/10.

Also, just out of curiosity what maps did you make for the episode?

Oh! And about the boss map, was it indeed a homage or at least inspired by the secret "Cat and Mouse" boss map from Doom 64?

And about the ending screen/final intermission text, what wrote that thing?!??

And more last thing, what program did you use to build the new episode? Did you use Doom Builder 1 or 2 or some other community level maker or did you guys use your own program?

[phi108]

Wow, thanks for the episode! I'm liking the maps so far, I'm playing on Hurt Me Plenty, it's really fun gameplay. (And those monsters pouring out of that corner of that one room on Map 5, imps followed by Hellknights, genius! Also all the other cool areas.)

EDIT: Fixed, hehe

[esselfortium]

Heya TheCastle, fantastic work from both you guys!

This new episode is of far higher quality than I had expected from an addon created by mappers who weren't involved in the Doom fan community, and stands up really nicely as an official addition to the game. I'd love to see more Doom addons/expansions from you guys in the future if the interest and funding is there (and, on a similar note, I'd love to see this legally/officially made available for the PC at some point, as I know there are quite a few here, myself included, who have no legal way of acquiring it with the XBox-only release.)

phi108 said:

EDIT: Huh? Where did the ******* come from? I said "*******".
EDIT2: Dang, the word I'm typing is "gen1ous", with an "i".

It's "genius," genious. :P

[phi108]

esselfortium said:

It's "genius," genious. :P

ACK, so it is. lol

[Dutch Doomer]

I want to play this so bad...the devil can have my soul for this.

[Gez]

hardcore_gamer said:

Also, just out of curiosity what maps did you make for the episode?

See those handy links:
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Russell_Meakim_levels
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Richard_Heath_levels

[Super Jamie]

That's interesting to see the author distribution of the maps. Some features in various maps are obviously by the same author, some are obviously by a different person.

I'm only up to MAP06 on UV at the moment but I'm liking it alot. The design is fairly clean and the maps loop around and back on each other really well. I totally love the secrets, they are hidden nicely but also obvious to find in that "we want new people to find these" way which is very rewarding. For the most part they aren't too overpowering either.

The only thing I'd fault is monster placement in some areas, like the Arachno/Chaingunner snipers at the start of MAP04 or the fact all the "traps" seem to just be teleporters of every different type of monster without an awful lot of structure.

Also, a backpack around MAP03/MAP04 wouldn't have gone astray :P

[SaladBadger]

Ugh I wish I had an xbox (or a friend interested in doom with a xbox). I really want to play this new mapset now.

[TheCastle]

Super Jamie said:

That's interesting to see the author distribution of the maps. Some features in various maps are obviously by the same author, some are obviously by a different person.

I'm only up to MAP06 on UV at the moment but I'm liking it alot. The design is fairly clean and the maps loop around and back on each other really well. I totally love the secrets, they are hidden nicely but also obvious to find in that "we want new people to find these" way which is very rewarding. For the most part they aren't too overpowering either.

The only thing I'd fault is monster placement in some areas, like the Arachno/Chaingunner snipers at the start of MAP04 or the fact all the "traps" seem to just be teleporters of every different type of monster without an awful lot of structure.

Also, a backpack around MAP03/MAP04 wouldn't have gone astray :P

This is really good feedback :)
I agree with you on the teleport traps and I can see why you would feel that way. I think that traps where more of the map opens up tend to feel more coherent and rewarding as you progress. I guess one of the biggest challenges with doing a doom episode is making sure your encounters feel relatively unique.

I have to admit that using chaingunners or any hitscan baddy in a fairly large open space is usually a pet peeve of mine too. My goal with that particular area was to give the feeling of climbing the side of a mountain. Fully linear sequences are a pretty unusual thing to see in doom 2. I view it as an interesting experiment where modern and old school design flows had a chance to meet somewhere in the middle. The snipers are used strategically as a way to force you to take cover from time to time. which in turn causes a kind of feeling of sensory overload making the first sequence longer than it really is. Causing you to feel as though the level is now just beginning as you reach the top. Interesting no?

Anyway I have to pry myself from the forum for a bit because I find myself thinking out loud too often on forums like this. Super happy seeing this episode come out so I should probably stop talking so much hehe. Glad you are enjoying the episode. :)

[JadedLexi]

This is an awesome map set, I got it on the PC right now and enjoying it a lot. ^_^

[RTC_Marine]

For me, I have to say that a new official map set reinvigorates my love for doom.

My brother owns the 360, when it comes to doom (and a few other things) he is my exact opposite and refuses to play any games that don't match up to todays graphical standards, he also owns a mac.

Anyway I'd be willing to shell out some coinage for this, the new maps look good, I might even give multiplayer a go even though I suck :P

[GooberMan]

Since many of us are thinking it and haven't asked it yet: Will there be more levels as DLC?

[Super Jamie]

TheCastle said:

This is really good feedback :)

Hehe, I can elaborate more if you like? I tend to do a fair bit of playtesting so supplying good feedback (both positive and negative) is something I put a bit of effort into :)

It is difficult to make good unique encounters, there's so many factors to take into account like player reaction time, multiple heights/directions and whether you'll nerf the whole thing with infighting. Now that I think of MAP04's start as a small but elongated battle it seems really clever, cool trick!

Thanks for dropping by, it's so great that the community has had a place in your thoughts throughout the release, we're happy to listen to you think out loud ;)

Did you guys have any prior knowledge of Doom mapping before you did this project, or did you do any research such as Dr Sleep's Doom Builder guide or the various community tutorials? Some areas really show a prior knowledge of the engine. Are any of the Strife team still around in Nerve?

[TheCastle]

Super Jamie said:

Did you guys have any prior knowledge of Doom mapping before you did this project, or did you do any research such as Dr Sleep's Doom Builder guide or the various community tutorials? Some areas really show a prior knowledge of the engine. Are any of the Strife team still around in Nerve?

I had made quite a few doom 2 levels a long time ago. Tons of sleepless nights. Sadly I lost my best work due to a hard drive crash. I lost my Duke 3d maps from the same crash. :(

This was so many years ago but it still bothers me when I talk about it. And Duke 3d maps are comparable to modern day games in terms of effort to create... ><

I think I have worked with nearly every major 3d engine though.
edit: Strife was a really cool game too. Ill ask around we might still have someone. :)

[skogsto09]

I did notice a miss alligned health potion in the start of map02 doom2. Other than that it seems good :)

On a more serious\interesting note: I was fairly impressed with the standard in this new episode. Far better than some recent community made addons. It stays true to a unique style and it really makes you wanna play further. My favoritt ones has to be map 02,05,06 and 07.
Didn't fancy map01 and 09 too much though.

Light levels could have needed some more work to create more of an atmosphere throughout the episode.

The monster placement\combos used on most occasions worked out well. At least on SP\Coop UV skill. This in relation to what weapon types avaliable. I feared I was gonna come into situations like facing 10 barons shotgun only. Or other horrible examples, creating frustration and poor gameplay. I would however have suggested quite a few tweaks in terms of item\powerup placements for gameplay optimization.



Overall it has some distance to cover in terms of getting it *up there* with the quality of Alien Vendetta. I do realize the team on this project didnt have those kind of resources avaliable. I'm not talking *time* here. It litterly takes thousands of hours just playing the game to understand how to make the best of doom.

Great work still... 4\5

TheCastle:
How aware were the team of the capabilities of the doom engine? I mean precice movements can crack most maps skipping keys and the likes. Havn't explored the maps in that great of a detail yet but I'm sure I'll find some :)

Did Nerve put any effort into researching the community itself? Like gathering some inspiration from other community made projects?

Lastly you think the episode is beatable on nightmare ? (in one go without dying) I was a little disapointed when I didn't see any achivements for doing a fullgame run on nightmare of doom2.

[Jodwin]

Great episode for what it is, in design it even rivals plenty of community map sets even though there's some texturing issues, slight over-detailing in parts (all those 4-unit steps in map01 for example, and then stuff in map09) and a caco swarm in map07 that's made worse than it should be by infinitely tall actors. Lighting in parts was great (the cement room in map02 in particular), canyon maps were very well made and the red skull fight in Vivisection was great. And extra points for the maps following each other thematically instead of them being fully disconnected. 8/10

TheDarkArchon said:

There's silly and there's so bad you expect Horatio Caine to whip out the sunglasses

And then there's the Doom Comic.

[ReFracture]

I guess I'll borrow a 360 and check this out. Could take that time to play that re-release of Prefect Dark as well.

[TheCastle]

skogsto09 said:
TheCastle:
How aware were the team of the capabilities of the doom engine? I mean precice movements can crack most maps skipping keys and the likes. Havn't explored the maps in that great of a detail yet but I'm sure I'll find some :)

Did Nerve put any effort into researching the community itself? Like gathering some inspiration from other community made projects?

Lastly you think the episode is beatable on nightmare ? (in one go without dying) I was a little disapointed when I didn't see any achivements for doing a fullgame run on nightmare of doom2. [/B]

I think we have a pretty good handle of the capabilities of the doom engine. Especially as far as movment and being able to find shortcuts ect. Though I am willing to bet after some work people will find unintended shortcuts and the like.

uh.. well aside from just being a long time fan and designer of maps myself I hadn't really put much research into more modern developments with the community. For example I have just started up a game of knee deep in zdoom and holy crap its another game lol.. I actually am considering to start a thread asking peoples opinions about Knee deep in zdoom just for my own curiosity.

If you want to know, the new episode came about because apparently my begging skill was high enough to proc an episode. :D Puppy dog eyes +1.. lol (Actually its Brandon is an awesome guy)

As far as nightmare...
I think the general consensus with nightmare is, although I am not speaking for anyone else, that its so hardcore that it would be a bad idea to encourage normal players to play it. Ah honestly, I am not sure if that's the right attitude. What do you think?

[TheCastle]

Super Jamie said:

Hehe, I can elaborate more if you like? I tend to do a fair bit of playtesting so supplying good feedback (both positive and negative) is something I put a bit of effort into :)

Feel free :)
Id like that actually.

[Jodwin]

TheCastle said:

For example I have just started up a game of knee deep in zdoom and holy crap its another game lol.. I actually am considering to start a thread asking peoples opinions about Knee deep in zdoom just for my own curiosity.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/43862-kdizd-thoughts/ :)


Back to the new episode, if there was something I found disappointing about it it was the difficulty. I would have expected it to be quite a bit more difficult (only parts of Vivisection and, because of infinitely tall actors, the caco swarm of map07 were that challenging for me). Also, not enough arch-viles. Arch-viles are awesome.

[TheCastle]

Jodwin said:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/43862-kdizd-thoughts/ :)


Back to the new episode, if there was something I found disappointing about it it was the difficulty. I would have expected it to be quite a bit more difficult (only parts of Vivisection and, because of infinitely tall actors, the caco swarm of map07 were that challenging for me). Also, not enough arch-viles. Arch-viles are awesome.

Ah thanks for the link. ill be back after I play some more through.

TTYL

[Scuba Steve]

And KDiZD isn't usually considered the paragon of Doom mapping. I'd probably consider Suspended in Dusk or Batman Doom as examples of the best Doom had to offer.