Doom II is actually pretty great :-)

Reasons I like Ultimate Doom better than Doom 2:

* The color scheme is better used in the first three episodes of Doom I than Doom II.
* Despite what others say, I find all the maps in Ultimate Doom to be solid, though E2M3 is too short.
* E3M3 is awesome.
* Thy Flesh Consumed is the most perfect set of maps made.
*In general the whole feel of Doom 1's theme's appeals to me more than Doom II.
* I love the way hell is portrayed in Doom 1 more than Doom 2, with an exception being that MAP29 fucking rocks.

Smaller, not as good reasons I like Doom 1 better than Doom 2:

* Doom 2 is missing the SKINTEK texture, my favorite texture in the whole series. Sure, I can add them in my own PWAD, but this means there's many Doom 2 PWADs that use default textures that skip over this completely.
* You have to kill Commander Keen, who was, like, my first video game hero ever. ;_;

Things about Doom 2 that are better than Doom 1: (But I still like Doom 1 better)

* SUPER SHOTGUN SUPER SHOTGUN SUPER SHOTGUN
* Extra monsters, even if I hate the Arch-Vile with a passion.
* The way the maps are set up, 30 normal progressive maps and 2 secret, is perfect.
* Doom 2 has better megawads. Always.
* MAP10 is amazing. MAP29 is amazing-er.
* As much as I hate the Icon of Sin, and think it's a retarded finale, it's usually the map I test the most on so I've grown to like it.

Doom 2's main contributions was in the new monsters and enemies. It had a few maps that had good design and themes for their time. MAP22, MAP25, MAP28, and MAP29 all come to mind. MAP14(?), the Inmost Dens, would also be on that list if I weren't so sick of all the imitations its style had spawned.

However, the majority of the maps are pretty darn ugly as far as architecture, layout, and texture choices are concerned. Ultimate Doom's episodes 2 and 3 had weird and clashing texture choices too, but somehow they managed to do it in a way that conveyed some sort of verisimilitude. When I'm walking through e.g. E3M4 I have no problem believing that I'm in some sort of surreal dimension of monsters. MAP09, MAP16 and MAP18, on the other hand, to name just a few? They just hurt my eyes.

Also:

Olympus said:

While I do agree to an extent, the final episode was supposed to be Hell on Earth, a place made by humans the demons transformed.

From the first page, but I haven't seen anyone else respond to it. I've heard this same sort of statement from other people and I can't understand it. It's pretty explicit that you pass through a portal to hell at the end of MAP20, both from the intermission text and from the way the exit is constructed with the portal in the floor, similar to the hell levels (although in this case the effect is somewhat ruined by having to use the same sky texture as the rest of the map, viz., the city sky).

While the rest of your criticisms I can agree come down to personal taste, I just can't resist taking this one apart. :)

jerrysheppy said:

the Inmost Dens, would also be on that list if I weren't so sick of all the imitations its style had spawned.

Compared to how many mediocre and generic E1 clone maps there are that try be "definitive E1", right down to the sterile monster placement, but miss the atmosphere completely, a map that loosely follows the same style of Inmost Dens, Map05 of AV for example is hardly a bad thing. There was also a really cool map in MM somewhere which was also inspired by The Inmost Dens which I'd take over any remake of E1.

There are a few good E1 inspired maps floating around that have the same atmosphere but at the same time feel distinct, like Dawn of The Dead, some of the maps from Classic Episode, a select few submissions for dtwid, and the two from MMII but as a whole the good ones are drowning in a sea of soulless mediocre boring indistinct clones.

DeathevokatioN said:

There was also a really cool map in MM somewhere which was also inspired by The Inmost Dens which I'd take over any remake of E1.

I assume it was MAP13.

TrueDude said:

Smaller, not as good reasons I like Doom 1 better than Doom 2:

* Doom 2 is missing the SKINTEK texture, my favorite texture in the whole series. Sure, I can add them in my own PWAD, but this means there's many Doom 2 PWADs that use default textures that skip over this completely.

Not only that! Contributing to a D2 project makes it's bleeding hole into my chest as the absence of:
- COMPTILE
- COMPUTE1-3
- various, mainly E1-themed light textures
- REDWALL1
- SKULWAL1, SKULWAL3
- WOODSKUL
- STONGARG
- SKINBORD
- ASHWALL
Damn, I'm soooo missing those textures!!!!!!111!!ONE!!!11111

Cell said:

Not only that! Contributing to a D2 project makes it's bleeding hole into my chest as the absence of:
- ASHWALL
Damn, I'm soooo missing those textures!!!!!!111!!ONE!!!11111

u tell em

DuckReconMajor said:

u tell em

Eh, I didn't say that to protect you from 'em just because you were a blandly stupid designer back in 2005! Eh, eh.

Of the total unaccounted times I've completed the classic Doom games, I've played and beaten Doom II the most, more than The Ultimate Doom and Final Doom combined. D2 is what I play through in it's entirety when I'm testing out mods and such. I feel the freestyle-like aspect of the level design is truly flawless. Even with the random and abstract sections, it never gets old no matter how many times I run through them. No other megawad I've played, even the very best ones, has reached D2's fluid and intuitive mapping styles.

Granted, if I want a quick shot of Doom, the first episode of the original is what I've ran through the second most to D2.

jerrysheppy said:

From the first page, but I haven't seen anyone else respond to it. I've heard this same sort of statement from other people and I can't understand it. It's pretty explicit that you pass through a portal to hell at the end of MAP20, both from the intermission text and from the way the exit is constructed with the portal in the floor, similar to the hell levels (although in this case the effect is somewhat ruined by having to use the same sky texture as the rest of the map, viz., the city sky).

Well, the phrase "Hell on Earth" means exactly as it sounds. It happens on earth. The orange sky in "Thy Flesh Consumed" is the same sky you see in the ending screen of "Inferno" which is on Earth. In Doom 2 once you reach map 21 you are no longer on earth but in hell so "Hell on Earth" no longer applies at that point.

I like Doom 1, but there's no denying that I like Doom II a lot. I recently played the entire game again, using Chocolate for that oldschool feel, and I found the entire experience to be enjoyable (except for that time I tried to berserk a mancubus, due to that bug that makes it really hard (if even possible sometimes) to punch giant monsters). I'm one of those who can enter Map13 and think for a second "well, I'm in a city", and all of that. Some of the map themes are pretty interesting, such as the water-tunnels of Map02, and the grand areas found in Map28 and Map29.

It is interesting to see that Doom II marked an increase in the amount of open levels, when compared to Doom (which only had a handful of said levels). I must agree with the OP when they mention the new monsters as a positive factor -- the Doom monsters are honestly boring sometimes, since many of them act practically the same.

What a stupid topic. Maybe you should post this on a non Doom forum.

geo said:

What a stupid topic. Maybe you should post this on a non Doom forum.

Well, it reached page 4 in just a few days and it is about Doom.

Doom2.wad may have better gameplay and replay value, but Doom.wad draws more inspiration, while most of Doom2.wad maps (except 21-30) look dull. Maps 12 to 20 in particular try to imitate real-life places, so their mapping inspiration potential is precisely zero. If I need to make city maps, what I need to do is just look around for inspiration, not in MAP12-20. Also, maps 1-11 are way too ambiguous on what they're supposed to represent, making them even less interesting.

There's no denying to Doom2.wad's fun factor when bored, though. But I hate all these bugs:

- the SSG gunflash taking one tic too long
- the sky not switching automatically between sections
- MAP14 and MAP22 music being glitchy on looping
- most of the music not sounding so great on OPL mode as the Doom 1 music
- surely there are others

Doom 1 is mainly saved by its fourth episode.

IMPORTANT EDIT: How often did you encounter SKINTEK throughout Doom 1? I only remember seeing it in Dis and probably in one other place. It was so rare its appearance was generally ominous.

cell:

Cell said:

I assume it was MAP13.

Not only that! Contributing to a D2 project makes it's bleeding hole into my chest as the absence of:
- COMPTILE
- COMPUTE1-3
- various, mainly E1-themed light textures
- REDWALL1
- SKULWAL1, SKULWAL3
- WOODSKUL
- STONGARG
- SKINBORD
- ASHWALL
Damn, I'm soooo missing those textures!!!!!!111!!ONE!!!11111

Problem solved if you use ZDoom and the mighty bestiary to make Doom 1 maps.

printz said:

Doom2.wad may have better gameplay and replay value, but Doom.wad draws more inspiration, while most of Doom2.wad maps (except 21-30) look dull. Maps 12 to 20 in particular try to imitate real-life places, so their mapping inspiration potential is precisely zero. If I need to make city maps, what I need to do is just look around for inspiration, not in MAP12-20. Also, maps 1-11 are way too ambiguous on what they're supposed to represent, making them even less interesting.

You must live in the weirdest place on earth if Doom 2's city maps are so realistic as to be so interchangeable with the real world. Are all your friends' driveways tight spiraling corridors on steep jagged inclines up the sides of a mountain?

printz said:

IMPORTANT EDIT: How often did you encounter SKINTEK throughout Doom 1? I only remember seeing it in Dis and probably in one other place. It was so rare its appearance was generally ominous.

The skin room near the end of E2M5 is my most memorable encounter with it.

How inspirational are Doom and Doom 2 is an interesting topic!

For me, Doom has way more solid atmosphere throughout the whole experience, and seeing as my main concern in mapping is creating atmosphere, i'd say Doom is more inspirational. I didn't like Doom 2 at all originally, but with thinking and imagining i started interpreting things "my way" (which may have not been the authors' way) and seeing what potential ideas are hidden in Doom 2 but not really realized, and so i started appreciating it more.

I'd say Doom does what it tries to do in terms of atmosphere far better than Doom 2, but we aren't (usually) just trying to replicate the original games so the ideas behind Doom 2 (cities twisted by hell, hell itself being less "fire and brimstone" and more chaotic and with more anthropogenic structures) are just as valuable and perhaps even build upon the ideas of Doom.

Now, gameplay-wise i really don't prefer one over another. Doom 2 is trickier and more action-y, Doom is tighter and (i think) more fluid somehow.

Doom2 is super great, but I mostly dislike the city based levels.

A few things that I prefer in Doom 2:

Separate episodes. Each is like a new game unto itself. When I play Ultimate Doom, I have four choices. Whereas in Doom 2, I'm forced to always start at map 1.

Intermission screens. This has been mentioned, but the intermission screens in Doom 1 are satisfying and puts context into the maps.

Doom 1 was first. The 2nd may be bigger and badder, but there's nothing like the first time.

Also, I like the relative simplicity of the original. If anything Doom 2 has inspired way too many PWADS where I have to navigate through massive maps, not knowing where to go, all because I missed some switch that wasn't really visible to begin with. Doom 2 doesn't really have this problem, though.

esselfortium said:

You must live in the weirdest place on earth if Doom 2's city maps are so realistic as to be so interchangeable with the real world. Are all your friends' driveways tight spiraling corridors on steep jagged inclines up the sides of a mountain?

I don't think it's worth arguing with you because you know how to turn the argument in your advantage :) I just said that the theme of the mid-episode of Doom 2 is so mundane it lacks any originality. The maps may look abstract and interesting, but they're built on a very boring premise.

Haha esselfortium exposed! Just imagine him in his underwear.

I don't think it's that they tried to emulate city and failed. I just think the parts they did get down are ugly and boring to some people. I think if they had done it differently, even if it was still as abstract and unrealistic as it is now, we'd see city lovers and city haters taking different positions.

DuckReconMajor said:

I don't think it's that they tried to emulate city and failed. I just think the parts they did get down are ugly and boring to some people.

Deep in my heart I hope they were going for the abstract and surreal "cities" we got. But my brain says they were probably just lazy.

Favorite things about Doom 2:
+ Super Shotgun
+ Heavy Weapon Dude/Chaingunner
+ Archvile
+ "City" environments
+ Barrels of Fun!
+ Gotcha!
+ Wolfenstein-inspired Secret Levels
+ Easter Eggs (Keen, Romero's head on a stick, etc.)

Least favorite things about Doom 2:
- Pain Elemental
- Nirvana
- The Chasm
- Icon of Sin

I wouldn't say Doom 2 is bad, but it certainly has its flaws.

printz said:

IMPORTANT EDIT: How often did you encounter SKINTEK throughout Doom 1? I only remember seeing it in Dis and probably in one other place. It was so rare its appearance was generally ominous.

Sure it was featured in E2M5 near the exit, E2M6 in the pitch dark room near the red skull and also in E3M3 if I remember well.

Antroid said:

Deep in my heart I hope they were going for the abstract and surreal "cities" we got. But my brain says they were probably just lazy.

Given that every Phobos base level in Doom 1 roughly equals "attractive and playable arrangement of lamps, oversized computers, and nuclear waste", regardless of whether it is called a computer station or a military base, it would seem unlikely that anyone at id decided Doom 2 should be any less abstract in the portrayal of its subject matter. It's no secret that the story was secondary to the gameplay.

Yeah well the phobos bases were constructed confined and maze-like, as in space. Not as bad as in Doom 3, but good enough to fit on the Doom engine.

I actually wish there were cars in Doom 2... not as interested in player-driveable cars as in possessed cars, imp-driven cars and crashed cars. Cars would have given the maps the desired city look. And no, they wouldn't be slower than Doomguy.

Doom 2 may have better level design, and better monsters and a really great new weapon, and may be more challenging in the gameplay department... but I still prefer Doom.

I think the biggest thing I don't like about Doom2 is the new textures - most of those brick textures are very similar and the new textures just seem a bit too brown. Doom seems more colourful with the grey/silver startan, the black and white rock texture, the green sladwall and nukage and the red flames and flesh and the blue comp textures. I know that Doom2 has most of these as well but they don't stand out as much and are used more sparingly amongst the brown brick and Bronze textures. Also the first 2 Doom2 skies don't help at all

Antroid said:

Deep in my heart I hope they were going for the abstract and surreal "cities" we got. But my brain says they were probably just lazy.

The whole game including monsters and textures was made in like 9 months. Lazy my ass.

esselfortium said:

Given that every Phobos base level in Doom 1 roughly equals "attractive and playable arrangement of lamps, oversized computers, and nuclear waste", regardless of whether it is called a computer station or a military base, it would seem unlikely that anyone at id decided Doom 2 should be any less abstract in the portrayal of its subject matter. It's no secret that the story was secondary to the gameplay.

Well those levels were just videogame levels painted like techbases... and of course some consideration was given to the theme while creating layouts. I think.
But in Doom 2 i hope they weren't trying to "paint" the levels like JUST a destroyed city... Because they aren't as good at looking like that as ep1 pf Doom 1 was at looking like a techbase.
So either they actually made the cities so bizarre and looking like nothing in particular on purpose, or they couldn't do any better. :( Sure some areas in those levels are clearly outright hellish, but then you have everything else that is making even less sense.

Use3D said:

The whole game including monsters and textures was made in like 9 months. Lazy my ass.

Okay, lazy and/or in a hurry. So the levels are probably just rushed in that respect. Kinda makes it worse.

printz said:

I actually wish there were cars in Doom 2... not as interested in player-driveable cars as in possessed cars, imp-driven cars and crashed cars. Cars would have given the maps the desired city look. And no, they wouldn't be slower than Doomguy.

First you bitch about the mid episode of Doom 2 being mundane, and then you make a suggestion that would make it even more mundane.

esselfortium said:

What are your favorite parts of Doom 2?

The Beginning.



When I first played through this I wasn't analyzing map design, music, etc. and the hair would tingle on the back of my neck in anticipation of the unknown horrors that awaited me. I had skipped the first Doom and went from Wolfenstein to Doom II so it really rocked me. Late at night in a dark room, few hits of "smoke", and then it was time to open Doom II.

The shock of my first encounter with Dead Simple has stayed with me. I still frequently run from Map01 through Dead Simple and then quit.

DeathevokatioN said:

First you bitch about the mid episode of Doom 2 being mundane, and then you make a suggestion that would make it even more mundane.

It stays mundane... But if so, it needs to be as great as possible with this trait in it.

Dark Covenant (darkcvnt.wad) has some pretty good city maps, esp. MAP03 and MAP07. And it also has my all-time favorite intermission screen tune (Bee Gees "Stayin' Alive").

One of the problems though with city maps (and vertically-built maps in general) is that the engine's autoaim often doesn't work and you end up firing rockets, plasma cells, and even chaingun bullets into walls instead of hitting your intended target, because the engine just shoots straight instead of accounting for the vertical offset. And it can be really difficult at times to judge whether or not the autoaim will work correctly. You pretty much have to fire a single shot, wait for feedback, and only then follow up with more rockets or rounds. Otherwise you end up wasting lots of ammo and maybe even getting hit by the very same targets you're trying to take out (chaingunners on a wall, ledge or in a window above you, for example).

I think the classic Tech Base style and the other sprawling and mostly horizontal maps that Doom E1-3 had are much better suited to the Doom engine. When they designed Doom II, they should have updated the engine to reflect the highly-vertical maps they were designing, by either fixing the autoaim code, or maybe adding an Up/Down Look feature like Raven did with Heretic.