The DWIronman League dies to: Interstellar Sickness & Shaman's Device

[NaZa]

3 hours ago, Crusader No Regret said:

279 kills on 20/ 126 kills on 21  So 405 total but I may be remembering wrong as I'm stewing from the circumstances of my defeat.

You are indeed remembering wrong - it was 297 kills on MAP20, which brings it to 423 kills total!

 

Also a horribly unlucky way to die, similar to Anima Zero in a way - I got hit by the same archvile you died to (I guess) but thankfully it teleported away soon. Too bad - it was a confident performance by you up to that!

[Malrionn]

Category 3, I have played Community Chest 4 several times as it is one of my all time favourite megawad and I have done some practice runs of the two maps before doing my run.

 

Spoiler

 

And it pays off :

 

 

The first time I survived and maybe the only time.

 

 

File : Malrionn_Ironman_CC4-Shaman.zip

[Suitepee]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/312956242

 

Died on map 20, 313/321 monsters killed. Done in by the triple archvile trap. Category 1 run since I did a strawpoll on Monday for blind/not blind, and blind won out.

 

I can only hope that both mutt and dragonfly die to one of the two nasty encounters prior to that one. If mutt wins I'm out of the Britbowl, and if dragonfly wins I can at best tie it up 4-4-4 in December.

[leodoom85]

@SuitepeeSome ways to die are possibly for both playing hastily or having bad decisions in some of the traps...

[Alfonzo]

6 hours ago, Suitepee said:

Category 1 run since I did a strawpoll on Monday for blind/not blind, and blind won out.

 

That's interesting. Do you have any numbers for me?

 

The trend towards category 3 runs is more noticeable, these days, so much that I'd be lying if I said I wasn't wary of a possible shift in the Ironman paradigm. RjY's meticulous deconstructions were almost the sole reason the category was brought in, even though he was the only player doing prepared runs at the time, and while I still admire them I remain a bigger proponent of crossing your fingers and bringing whatever knowledge you have of a set to bear on the day. First try, first death. It makes for a much more enjoyable watch, at least.

 

The method will continue to be supported for now and I'm not going to try and limit the numbers artificially, but my greatest hope is that participants continue to recognize where the spirit of the league was founded.

 

#CorBlimey #PreparedToDie

Edited September 22, 2018 by Alfonzo : spellingo

[NaZa]

I agree - while it does take skill to survive even if you're prepared, it becomes much easier, which kinda takes away from the spirit, especially if you prepare every wad you've never heard of - obviously you'd get further than most.

 

Though, I do enjoy RjY's runs, as they're generally the most perfected prepared runs. 

[Suitepee]

5 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

That's interesting. Do you have any numbers for me?

 

https://www.strawpoll.me/16476671/r

[an_mutt]

Can't even be assed highlighting this, so have the VOD of an embarrassing run.

 

Spoiler

Eh. Dunno what to say.

 

[Bdubzzz]

It does defeat the purpose of an Ironman if its a prepared run IMO, its basically just a one "official" attempt at a UV-Speed with a safer/slower route at that point.

 

As far as if you care about competing against other players on the leaderboard then you're kind of forced to do a prepared run unless you only count people in your same category I suppose.

 

I guess you could look at it as competing against your self and see if you can survive the wad ;p

[Tristan]

Damn, even being awake for 26 hours and not playing Doom for a whole month can't put me on the bottom :D

[leodoom85]

Well, feel free to delete the prepared category anytime, so that folks use the only one chance to make a run of the map...I don't mind it anyway.

[HexaDoken]

While I do have the same "not true ironman" sentiment about prepared runs, I have to admit that this is ultimately a competition(even if not entirely a serious one), and allowing prepared runs serves as an... equaliser of sorts.

 

After all, even if we ban prepared runs and everyone actually agrees and honours this rule(good luck actually enforcing this, hah!), there is still an enormous amount of difference between "i've literally never played or even heard of this wad before" and "wow hi I played this literally yesterday, what are the odds huh?". What are we going to do? Ask players to pretend they don't know about the traps they know are there? Or have everyone scan doomworld for every wad, ever, and play all of them in hopes of maximising the odds that whatever Alfonzo picks will be something familiar to you?

 

FWIW when someone on a certain discord server said something to an effect of "not a lot of people do unprepared runs these days", I checked the Rush ironman table real quick(which is the last table that is actually complete...), and it clocks at 8 prepared runs to 14 blind and 14 familiar runs, so it still seems the vast majority of players do unprepared runs.

 

Granted, it should be noted that if we only look at the upper half of the table, the counts become 3 blind 9 familiar and 6 prepared runs, so those who prepare do have a somewhat higher degree of success... on the other hand, to my memory, Krypto never prepares and still has more ironman victories than literally everyone else combined.

Edited September 24, 2018 by HexaDoken : Rush. The wad name is rush. Where the hell did "rust" come from, brain?

[seed]

I also share the sentiment of prepared runs not being "true" Ironman, what chances has a player who never played a certain wad or map against someone who already knows where everything is or simply how the map itself works? Not much probably, the element of surprise will eventually crush the newcomer, or that's how I see it anyway. For instance, I remember my Rush run, since Hexa above mentioned it, and there was no way I could've made it far in that wad without knowing how the maps worked, I ultimately died at the start of a level if I'm not mistaken, don't remember the exact details.

 

Nonetheless, it is a monthly contest at the end of the day, so some people will be more prepared and experienced than others, there's no way around it. It's best to leave things how they are me thinks, don't fix what ain't broken.

[Big Ol Billy]

Interesting debate here. I'm kinda encouraged to hear that people are critical of prepared runs, since the major reason I miss out on some Ironmans is that I either get really into a map or just die stupidly, and then I tell myself that I'll do another run sometime--which I never get around to actually doing. I do agree that it makes it more exciting from a player experience standpoint to go in with the mentality of "You only have one shot, do not miss your chance to blow [demons away]." But the trade-off is that it's a less equal competition, at least as long as we stick to WADs that other people have a chance of having already played. (The idea of having specially-made Ironman WADs is an interesting one--haven't some Doom communities done that? I seem to remember some WAD text files describing something like that.)

[Steve D]

I, not surprisingly, prefer to keep things as they are. ;D

 

There's no way to make this competition Simon-pure apart from limiting participants to those who've never played a given wad before, and then making it an FDA contest. As it stands, no matter which wad is chosen, some of the people who participate are likely to have played it before, perhaps many times, perhaps even recently. We may even have people who've speedrun the wad before, which means they really know it inside-out. But their runs will count only as Cat 2 familiarity. By contrast, I only seek to avoid dying on the first map, and I'll typically only do a single practice run of however many maps I can squeeze in given my drastically constricted Doom time. In multi-map sets, I typically practice about 5 maps, or up to the map I'm certain I'll die on. ;) This worked out well for me in Rush, DTWiD, and Endgame, even though I failed to survive any of them. And I'm still pissed-off about dying on E3M5 of DTWID. I'll never get over that. I'm permanently traumatized. :D That was the only time I was able to practice the entire megawad, but just one time through, IIRC. Others may have played it more than once, but they will be Cat 2 and I will be Cat 3, so there's a question as to whether a one-time Cat 3 is really more "prepared" than someone who's played a mapset several times in the past.

 

Just watching someone livestream a mapset gives you lots of knowledge as well. By the same token, when I watched Suitepee play this month's selections, I purposely did not tell him about the Map20 Yellow Key trap even though I wanted him to get all the way through and get another Brit Bowl win, because he bravely went with his polling for a blind run. It's not exactly blind if people are telling you where every trap and secret is, now is it? So popular livestreamers can have an advantage if people give them too many tips.

 

As it stands now, Cat 2 and Cat 3 are handicapped. If I die on the same map as someone playing blind, I lose even if I get further into the map and achieve more kills. I can only get ahead of the Cat 1 and Cat 2 players if I make it to the next map. That seems like a reasonable way to deal with it. That way, even if by some miracle I tied Krypto for the top position -- say, he was playing while blind drunk or in the midst of open-heart surgery without anesthetic -- I would still lose because a tie isn't good enough against a Cat 1.

 

I guess the real issue might be the matter of good players preparing runs instead of flying blind. 

 

Funny thing in my case is that I sometimes do much better in blind practice runs than when it counts. There's no justice in this world. :D

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

11 minutes ago, Steve D said:

It's not exactly blind if people are telling you where every trap and secret is, now is it?

I would call this a Cat 4. You might as well have a guide open and reading/watching that while you're going, and that's kind of against the spirit, isn't it?

I agree with the post in its entirety. I practiced these maps because I just wanted to survive (which didn't happen, regardless), but I could be reasonably expected to go blind/familiar most times.

[yakfak]

I like every style of run. also some people are already experts at given level sets and itd be weird to disqualify them for Knowing Too Much

[Steve D]

6 hours ago, HexaDoken said:

While I do have the same "not true ironman" sentiment about prepared runs, I have to admit that this is ultimately a competition(even if not entirely a serious one), and allowing prepared runs serves as an... equaliser of sorts.

 

And let's not forget the fun side competitions, like the Brit Bowl and the Keyboard Kup.

[Steve D]

1 hour ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

I would call this a Cat 4. You might as well have a guide open and reading/watching that while you're going, and that's kind of against the spirit, isn't it?

 

True. But it seems to me that Suitepee didn't get much coaching this time out. I've been bad in the past, I must admit, perhaps giving him too much info. So the question is whether Alfonzo would want to make a Cat 4, and would a livestream with help actually be less good than a prepared run, so that prepared runs become Cat 4 and livestreams with help become Cat 3? At some point it gets to be a mess, doesn't it? ;D

[NaZa]

I liked the November run of Oscillation the most, when he was receiving tips from the WAD author himself, but let's face it - anyone communicating on Discord gets some sort of insight too :P

[DeletedUser]

Here be another rare Cat 1, blind run from myself in a delightful 25:11.

 

DWIronman_cchest4_BlooditeKrypto.zip

 

I've never liked the Cchest series, considering them a mixed bag of mediocre to average maps, being a community project where their are a variety of mappers, it has the potential hindrance of the overall quality varying greatly as a result. The first one I played around 10 maps then concluded this hasn't been fun so far, the gameplay boring and the level design dull. The second was the same scenario with even less maps tried, I could only play it more thoroughly in a 1 life survival session a few years ago with a friend, but even then we got to the start of episode 3 and grew tired of it. The third one starts out intriguing with some tense gameplay, but then oddballs show up where the mapping quality nosedives which spoils the overall experience. The fourth is definitely a step up in both artistic and gameplay design, but it just isn't too my taste; so I've never played any Cchest to completion and I don't intend to, wads are like chemistry to me, I either click with them or I don't.

 

This run was a case of run around like a headless chicken, looking ahead and deciding whether to rush forward and see what I could get away with or hang back and clear out enemies in the near vicinity so I don't get blindsided. I got dazed by one teleporter on the first map due to not being observant and confused with progression on the second map, having not paid attention and being mesmerised by the sensual detail on display. It was an exhilarating ride with numerous ballsy moments, can't be cautious when I'm trying to compete against prepared runs.

 

Now that the topic has been brought up again I guess I'll share my stance, yeah prepared runs are lame as they cripple the challenge and therefore purpose of participating in an Ironman, I don't consider them a serious submission and they shouldn't be held to the same standard as a blind or you've played the wad in the past and are familiar with it territory, which is a more authentic demonstration of playing ability, but they are still a valid entry in demonstrating one's attempted or successful victory over a set deathless and saveless. However you wouldn't be able to ban prepared runs anyhow, if you so desired, the current system doesn't have any method to regulate or deny participants from doing prepared runs, even if you hypothetically made submissions stream only, this doesn't change the fact you have a whole month and can simply practice beforehand then stream it live at a date of your choosing, you'll just have the pressure of a live audience but still familiarity with the wad at hand.

 

Their isn't any means of changing this unless the system was radically overhauled, problem is I can't think of an alternative, other then changing the winning criteria to incorporate not only fastest completion time but a more substantial element as well; however that starts to make things complex then and could detract from the overall enjoyment of the event, ultimately who cares? I see this as a bit of simple fun and something engaging for those who don't play saveless regularly, as the OP states 'It could change the way you play Doom!' so maintaining the fun factor should be exalted above everything else and maintaining the spirit of keeping Ironman simple and welcome to all players should be respected. If anyone has a potential alternative to the current system it would be interesting to hear.

 

Congrats @leodoom85 ;)

[Pegleg]

(It took me so long to write this, yakfak through Krypto had time to post between the time I started and finished writing.)

 

I agree with SteveD. I started doing practice runs and watching posted streams and demos of the maps because I wanted to make it past the first map. It wasn't the highest of goals, but, given my skill level, it seemed like a reasonable one. Especially given that, playing blind, I tend to die rather quickly, especially on higher skill levels that I usually shy away from.

 

My vote is to keep Category 3, because, personally, I like having the option of being able to practice for a run. Whether it is looked upon as lesser or lame doesn't bother me. I'm also not opposed to eliminating it as a separate category, if that is what the majority wants to do. But my personal vote would be to keep it.

 

The bottom line is, as I've said before and SteveD just said (at least he just said it when I started writing), that you still have to perform when the lights are on. Yes, you get to learn what will happen when and what bonuses are where, but you still have to survive the traps and fights and get the bonuses that you now know about. Would the top players be punished that much if Cat 3 runs were banned? Probably not, because they likely would have survived these things anyway.

 

If you want to ban Cat 3 runs, it probably won't shift the top of the leaderboard too much. The top players will still probably be near the top. Some of the rest of the players will finish lower than if they had the chance to practice extensively, but that's life, too.

 

Looking at the last several months that have complete final standings, this is how many Cat 3 runs there have been, by place in the table:

 

If you look at this month so far, according to Naza's table, out of 23 entries, there are 3 Cat 3 runs in the Top 10 and 4 Cat 3 runs in the rest of the group. As Hexa pointed out, there are, in general, more Cat 1 and Cat 2 runs. Incidentally, only this month (so far) and DWTiD sport a Cat 3 run in 1st place. So, I don't think the presence of prepared runs is slanting the contest heavily one way or another. It's just another option.

 

If Cat 3 were to be eliminated, I don't think you'll lose much, if any, participation. People don't do the Ironman Challenge because they are given the opportunity to practice a particular set of levels or look at those levels in an editor. Personally, I would still participate, I just wouldn't place as well. And maybe that puts me in 88th place at the end of the year instead of 85th--I'm OK with that. As Krypto said, the point is to have fun--and I have fun playing in the Ironman Challenge.

[leodoom85]

@Bloodite KryptoThanks man :) . And about that, I thought hard about the future runs and I came to the conclusion that I'll do blind runs from now on to make the session more credible and exciting. 

 

[HexaDoken]

18 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

I would call this a Cat 4. You might as well have a guide open and reading/watching that while you're going, and that's kind of against the spirit, isn't it?

Strong disagree. While it's true that the peanut gallery in the livestream can give you an advantage, it definitely does not constitute a category higher than 3. If we compare two players, one who has personally played the maps in question and is familiar with what is to come, and another player who has never played the maps but has a written walkthrough on their lap, the first player definitely has the advantage. Personally experiencing is far better than just being told.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

The point of the Ironman is for the participant to rely on themselves, not on outside assistance. A guide and a viewer acting as a guide qualify as outside assistance, and so go against the spirit. I don't think it's a blind run if someone is telling the runner literally every trap and secret they're going to face.

[Dragonfly]

Well, the pressure's on for John now, because I beat MAP20. I met an unfortunate death at the double-cyber battle on MAP21, but I already outperformed my expectations, and considering I did my run on a whim "because I feel good", I couldn't be happier!

 

The scoreboard for the Britbowl is interesting right now - myself and an_mutt are tied for 1st position, with 4 wins each. John is in 3rd with his single win. I think John cou could pull through and make the Britbowl's last months incredibly interesting though; it's going to be tense!

 

My run's linked below. Starts at 01:12:20, after the birthday stuff heh.

 

 

[Catpho]

Missed it aw darn, should have known

Late happy birthday @Dragonfly?

Pretty sure you are not 20 but this gif is hilarious.

[Dragonfly]

26, but who cares, that GIF is awesome! Thanks Catpho. ^_^

[Alfonzo]

Thanks to everyone for all this input! A very pleasant surprise. It's great to read that people care enough to comment on this issue even without the expressed call to do so. I should stress again that I don't have any intention of ditching Cat 3; rather, to advise that I have found most people in the past enjoy the uncertainty of the experience, and that with enough momentum given to the category at present some new players might miss an opportunity to explore this kind of delightful terror. As always, though, if you're enjoying yourself and you continue to not take the "competition" angle of this league too seriously, that's all I think any of us can really ask for. *

 

Happy birthday, Dragonfly :)

 

EDIT: *Some folks might ask that I update the OP every once in a while, I suppose.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Alfonzo

[Dragonfly]

11 minutes ago, Alfonzo said:

Happy birthday, Dragonfly :)

 

EDIT: *Some folks might ask that I update the OP every once in a while, I suppose.

 

Thanks! And yes, that OP of yours would be amazing if it was relatively up to date :D