Unpopular Doom Opinions

[Maximum Matt]

If they'd slathered Gate To Limbo in Startan and put that in the E1M1 slot, people would be calling it the greatest opening level since Super Mario level 1-1 and calling Sandy Petersen a mapping legend up there with Archimedes.  

[Scypek2]

On 11/12/2023 at 12:31 AM, roadworx said:

100% this. he's the reason the game even has any flying enemies

 

For real?! I knew about pushwalls in wolf3d and teleporters in Doom (I also recall something about ID wanting to give up on secrets for Doom, but Tom Hall insisting otherwise), but that's new. Flying enemies seem like such an obvious choice for a more vertical game engine!

[kevansevans]

Tom Hall understood what made Doom fun way more than the other level designers, making Episode 2 the best episode in Doom. Lot's of enemies, lots of secrets, introduced teleporters, made the maps where arguably the "main story" happens (the plot twist of it not being aliens, but demons from hell), sets a far more sinister tone with tracks like "The Demons From Adrian's Pen" and themes of hell overtaking tech bases, and significantly less linear (imo) than other episodes/maps.

 

It's frequently cited that the team at id Software asked Tom to research military bases, then poo pooed all over what he found, which I remind you was *by their request*, but had they decided to collaborate on ideas and maps, instead of tasking one mapper per episode, the over all narrative theme would have been more cohesive.

[roadworx]

5 hours ago, Scypek2 said:

 

For real?! I knew about pushwalls in wolf3d and teleporters in Doom (I also recall something about ID wanting to give up on secrets for Doom, but Tom Hall insisting otherwise), but that's new. Flying enemies seem like such an obvious choice for a more vertical game engine!

yep, he stated it in this interview. according to him, before that it felt more like fighting against a bunch of guys in costumes, lol

 

[Otco]

Here's a spicy one:

 

Sunlust isn't that hard. People are just scared of it and therefore don't even want to attempt it. It has like 6 hard maps: 15, 24, 25, 28, 29, and 30, and even those are very manageable with minimal practice.

[Kwisior]

10 hours ago, Otco said:

Here's a spicy one:

 

Sunlust isn't that hard. People are just scared of it and therefore don't even want to attempt it. It has like 6 hard maps: 15, 24, 25, 28, 29, and 30, and even those are very manageable with minimal practice.

I'm not a bad player, but I once loaded up some later Sunlust maps (some aren't on your list) to gauge the difficulty and got my ass kicked. Figured I should beat Ribbiks' earlier stuff like Spoons, SWTW and Sd20x6 before attempting it.

Also, if decino - who cleared HR2 on UV saveless, had a miserable time with maps 28 and 30, then I think it's understandable to get scared.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Kwisior

[baja blast rd.]

24 minutes ago, Kwisior said:

Figured I should beat his earlier stuff like Spoons, SWTW and Sd20x6 before attempting it.

 

SWTW and SD20x6 are harder than Sunlust. 

 

Sunlust has two authors. You might have heard people call it a "Ribbiks wad" but those people are being disrespectful and also dumb because Dannebubinga's approach is very important to Sunlust being what it is. (I even think of Sunlust as a bit more of a Dannewad.) 

 

From Ribbiks' catalog, Crumpets is the "intro wad" from that time. And from Danne's, there is Combat Shock 2, which is forgiving, but still quite hard for a beginner, macroslaughter. But honestly the best intro to Sunlust is Sunlust because it ramps up slowly over its first half. 

[Kwisior]

35 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Sunlust has two authors.

Right, fixed it.

 

Since those WADs are harder, I might just beat them on HMP to get used to the combat style, Ribbiks even encourages it in the texfiles. It also helps that they're shorter and less exhausting than a full megawad.

Thanks for the recommendation btw.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Kwisior

[Sonikkumania]

I find Vanilla a boring format to map to.

[DoomGappy]

44 minutes ago, Sonikkumania said:

I find Vanilla a boring format to map to.

That's probably fairly popular since most projects tend to be boom or upwards. 

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:44 PM, kevansevans said:

It's frequently cited that the team at id Software asked Tom to research military bases, then poo pooed all over what he found, which I remind you was *by their request*, but had they decided to collaborate on ideas and maps, instead of tasking one mapper per episode, the over all narrative theme would have been more cohesive.

I'm reminded of the bit in one interview where Michael Raymond-Judy talked about how he didn't author every map but he did touch and finalize every map; they did tennis-style mapping on Heretic (or at least on the Shadow of the Serpent Riders expansion), sending the maps back and forth between authors to do edits and corrections, and that sure sometimes it bruised your ego to have someone go "this kinda sucks, what if we put this here instead" but it resulted in better maps.

 

This being the "unpopular Doom opinions" thread, I'll let that lead into a two-for-one:

- Heretic's level design is better than Doom's.

- That's in part because they followed consistent rules about how particular textures and elements were meant to be used, so if you saw a particular type of door or liquid you didn't have to puzzle over how it was supposed to work.  All the arguments on which Doom flats should hurt and how much are moot for Heretic, for instance, because the rules of damage floors are all there in a perusal of the IWAD, with very few deviations (and the phoenix in E4M7 is the only curveball that's clearly deliberate, the few other inconsistencies can be fairly readily chalked up as mapping errors).  Unfortunately it's eroded somewhat by third-party mappers, then and now, tending to gleefully disregard all of it, if they took the time to notice in the first place.

[plums]

1 hour ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

Unfortunately it's eroded somewhat by third-party mappers, then and now, tending to gleefully disregard all of it, if they took the time to notice in the first place.

I also used to be bothered by this a lot, but I made peace with it a while back. People are going to use textures wherever they want, sometimes out of a desire for creativity, other times from just ignoring the IWAD standards. I agree that the consistency in the original maps is definitely a plus and contributes to the maps feeling much more cohesive.

[Andromeda]

14 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

SWTW and SD20x6 are harder than Sunlust.

On average yes, but Sunlust MAP20 is harder than anything in those two wads in my opinion.

[Lila Feuer]

I'm glad liquid flats aren't hardcoded because otherwise creativity would be stifled.

 

That said it's always bothered me how going from MAP16 to MAP17 in Plutonia both involve sludging through nukage and prior level it's decorative while immediately opening into the next has it hurting you again. It could just be the Casalis having a morbid sense of humor.

[Jacek Bourne]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

On average yes, but Sunlust MAP20 is harder than anything in those two wads in my opinion.

 

Having UVMaxed all three of those wads, I disagree. While I found sunlust map20 to be one of the deadliest in sunlust, map06 of 20x6 and map03 of swtw were much more difficult for me. In sunlust I found maps 28 and 29 to be more difficult. This is based off attempt count on single segment runs.

[Gmg]

Doom II map 10 needs more ammo.

[ApprihensivSoul]

12 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

- Heretic's level design is better than Doom's.

 

That shouldn't be unpopular. I think the main reason it is is because Heretic's maps look so visually homogenous, so people tune it out after a few levels, not helped by the monster roster reuising alot of sprites. But yes, they are far better.

Here's one of mine. 

 

Hitscanners are supremely underrated and Shotgunners in particular are a major part of what makes Doom good.

[Sonikkumania]

I like the Light Amplification Visor powerup more when it goes on full bright instead of having that realistic night vision mode in modern source ports.

[Sonikkumania]

Berserk Pack.. what is it? It's Pervitin, really. What else can it be?

[SimonePiervergili]

Hi @Sonikkumania, have you watched my videos about iced tea?

[Sonikkumania]

Just now, SimonePiervergili said:

Hi @Sonikkumania, have you watched my videos about iced tea?

No, and you should post those kind of msges on my profile instead of derailing threads with offtopic.

[Perfect Bear]

Difficulty is not one of the absolute measures of a Doom map's worth.

[The Doommer]

10 minutes ago, Perfect Bear said:

absolute measures

Not an absolute measure but it's pretty important imo

Don't make it nuts.wad but don't make it empty either

[MAN_WITH_GUN]

- Easy maps in modern mapping are underrated. 

 

- Hitscan enemies are overhated.

 

- Nightmare is a great difficulty.

 

- ".ogg" music in boom wads are criminally underrated.

[LoatharMDPhD]

There are no Rules... or "Rules"...

 

and on UV, Fuck the Player... give him the chance to succeed, and design around his ultimate demise.. But no Terry Wads...

[zokum]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:00 PM, DoomGappy said:

That's probably fairly popular since most projects tend to be boom or upwards. 

Probably not. Mapping for vanilla is generally harder and in some cases more frustrating, but I wouldn't call it boring though. For a lot of people the added challenge and the need for inventive solutions is an important aspect. Mapping for a limit-removing port can still give you a fairly old-school look, but be much more forgiving when it comes to occasionally going over the limits. An area might have 134 vis planes in a specific spot, but be be below in all other locations in the map.

 

I've tried to make vanilla-mapping a bit more interesting with zokumbsp, since it will build some of the data structures better. You should be able to build more complex maps compared to most other tools.

 

Knowing how to build complex architecture that is within limits can be quite rewarding, at least it is to me. People often make maps that do not utilize all of what you can do in vanilla to ensure compatibility with ports. That can probably feel a bit restrictive, and maybe boring to some.

[Chao-G]

I love metal music, but I cannot, for the life of me, enjoy the modern Doom OST outside of the context of the game. When it's pounding electro-industrial or ambient, it's good, but when the "metal" parts come on, it feels like a haze of distorted riffs with the worst kind of guitar tone associated with modern metal and the djenty riffs. No thanks, man. I'd rather have people who are really steeped into that kind of music to make metal, and for any seasoned listener of the genre, this sort of approach feels really shallow.

[DoomGuy2077]

The Ultimate Doom and Doom II MIDIs aren't very good and I count it as a mark against a modern WAD or map if they're used. The formula for a Bobby Prince MIDI is plagiarized rock riff arranged into a 12 bar blues chord pattern. Every single time. 

[GermanPeter]

Invisibility isn't a bad powerup at all. If used effectively (i.e. against large groups of hitscanners and especially the Spider-Mastermind), it's incredibly good.
I feel like people hate on it so much because projectile-based enemies are way too prioritized in WADs, so it doesn't ever get the chance to really shine. Kinda goes together with the "hitscan is good, actually"-opinion of mine. If done right, both work extremely well together.

 

Also, the chainsaw is incredibly good, but is barely ever utilized well. Another item that people hate on but have never actually given a fair chance. I'd say it's far better more versatile than Berserk is, honestly. You can chainsaw a whole bunch of enemies very effectively while saving on ammo. It's not just for sawing Pinkies in vents.

 

Oh, and I haven't seen many examples of people using the Lite Amp Visor well either. You can so easily hide secret passages or enemies in the dark that only get revealed with it.

[NecrumWarrior]

I think Spectres are a good enemy type. On their own they are pretty easy to deal with and seem kinda pointless, but you put them in a dark place with lots of other enemies and they become something to keep the player on their toes.