So the Skulltag forums have been down for a while now...

[40oz]

Phml said:

I find myself agreeing with him now. He's certainly bringing a lot more substance to his argument than anyone who's been against him so far.

I feel pretty indifferent about Mogul's argument, but I sympathize with him because I often find myself in the same scenario, responding directly to everyone's retorts, and by a process of sheer numbers, get booed off the stage by a flood of people closing their ears shouting "LALALALA YOURE AN ASSHOLE YOURE AN ASSHOLE LALALALA" in the form of posting reaction faces, youtube videos and insults to my character instead of my argument. There was a point where being in that majority was fun but I've kinda grown out of it by now. (And I'm really not that old compared to most of you.)

[DuckReconMajor]

I sympathize too, and I think everyone's been in that position.

I think the part about outgrowing being part of that majority though is bullshit though. It's part of human nature. You can be more grown up and civil about it, but you'll never escape those desires completely.

[Krispy]

AHEM. Coughmmmm! Mmm. Skulltag forums.

[Marcaek]

Krispy said:

AHEM. Coughmmmm! Mmm. Zandronum forums.

Fixed that for you.

[Carnevil]

Qent said:

I'm sorry that it was so inconvenient, and I feel that you are owed an explanation. You have to realize that the fork movement was not a monolithic group with a single agenda: there were many people in it with competing ideals. Among them were a few who were determined to split no matter what, and were afraid that you might actually cave into their demands, preventing the fork. I do not believe that anyone made a conscious effort to sabotage the process, and Torr's being unable to participate throughout much of the process was probably just bad timing. But the result was that as a whole, the group had extremely short patience. I tried to grease the wheels turning in the other direction, but you told me off so harshly that I was afraid to touch it again for fear of spoiling any chance we had to stay where we were.

Yeah, that's true. Certainly everyone was not on the same page which I think is part of why in the end it was just a cacophony of people screaming various things which was not really good for anybody or anything. There certainly were those who wanted to fork no matter what I did and agreed to, and in the end, that camp won out.

I do apologize for being short with you. Like you said, since there was no monolithic group and therefore no group leader, I had just about every staff member pestering me for some sort of update when I was extremely pressed for time (I had relatives visiting, and was gearing up for the first release of something I've spent years working on). The few moments I did have at the time I did spent trying to figure out what I needed to do to get Metal set up, but I didn't have a lot of luck. I told her it'd be very helpful and greatly speed up the process if one of the staff members could look into what needed to be done to accomplish that, but not surprisingly, that didn't happen. But, like I said, there were those who wanted to fork anyway in which case had zero interest in helping.

DuckReconMajor said:

But Carnevil you've got more time for Wrack now. Isn't that a good thing?

Yes, definitely :)

[Mangetsu]

So who's these people who want to fork off and what's their Website?

I don't really care about drama or these shitty derailments, Skulltag needs to be revived.

[DuckReconMajor]

Mangetsu said:

So who's these people who want to fork off and what's their Website?

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doomworld-news/60222-ask-your-doctor-about-zandronum/

[Carnevil]

Mangetsu said:

I don't really care about drama or these shitty derailments, Skulltag needs to be revived.

No plans for that, but its spirit lives on!

[Blastfrog]

Wow, jeez, this is kinda... abrupt. Being a total outsider to Skulltag, I assumed everything was fine and dandy. But no, apparently drama was brewing so badly it caused the whole port to be cancelled. At least it's being continued as a fork.

[GreyGhost]

Mogul said:

But, if you want to stay true to what you're saying, you might ought to try hoisting your brand of judgment on any of the posters in this thread that have contributed with their "lol ur dumb!!!!!" posts. My detractors are numerous in their name-calling posts.

I know it hasn't been one-way traffic, unfortunately that's the way things tend to go once the insults start flying. If I can find my cane I'll start by giving Phobus a rap over the knuckles.

Phml said:

I find myself agreeing with him now.

Traitor! :P

[Csonicgo]

It never ends, this shit.

[Phobus]

Mogul said:

All it takes are people that see that it's not my place to make something called Pulp Fiction 2 for my case to have substance. To me, it's very clear that you're a pretentious cunt if you have the audacity to hijack an official naming scheme and use it on your project.

And here we come down to the crux of the matter. I'll ignore all of the insult flinging (much as I enjoy it). I'll ignore the fact that this argument is meant to be over and I'll even ignore your claim that you won't be posting in this thread again. I could easily go into why your dependance on ignoring what people like Gez are saying (when they point out the utility and value of this naming convention) or the actual valid parts of my argument (as in, a social contract requires social context, which your's doesn't have) already shows that you're making a huge fuss about nothing and, indeed, wrong - but I don't need to do that. Hell, I'll throw in a freebie and ignore your reliance on using (but thankfully not naming) critical thinking concepts, although that is truly pretentious.

This is why: Your example of "Pulp Fiction 2" isn't the same thing as this "D2DM1" stuff. You know that too, because you have to bring in a potential unofficial Episode 5, Doom 3 or 4 in order to validate your point. Your case has no substance because you're trying to prove it with something barely related. You're also calling the entire community a collective audatious pretentious cunt, because we all have made a "MAP01" or an "E1M1" at some point in our lives. As if we dare to say that we can overwrite the orignal map because it's clearly inferior to our own creation.

@GreyGhost: Do you mind if you wait a couple of days? I'm half-way through reviewing a few .WADs for the next /newstuff :P


As for the actual topic... I played SkullTag once! Might check out Zandronum one day too.

[LexiMax]

Carnevil said:

... and then the staff members all decided to leave and make a new site. That's why the forums are down for good. So, good luck to them.

Yeah, that's true. Certainly everyone was not on the same page which I think is part of why in the end it was just a cacophony of people screaming various things which was not really good for anybody or anything. There certainly were those who wanted to fork no matter what I did and agreed to, and in the end, that camp won out.

...But, like I said, there were those who wanted to fork anyway in which case had zero interest in helping.

This is disingenuous. The people who wanted to fork "no matter what" were out of the loop and unaware that things were in the process of being resolved. They were under the impression that you weren't holding up your end of the bargin...or at the very least not holding it up in spirit and playing games with people.

So yeah, communication could have been better amongst the staff members. But simply touching base with the people who you were actually arranging things with would have cleared things up and kept things moving. Instead, you just decide to take their word for it and shut down the forums on a whim.

[Qent]

A lot of things could have been done better. But the important thing is that the engine is alive, intact, and backwards-compatible.

[Mogul]

Phobus said:
I'll ignore the fact that this argument is meant to be over and I'll even ignore your claim that you won't be posting in this thread again.

I didn't say I wouldn't post here again, but I'm not going to discuss the naming convention in this thread anymore. But, for what it's worth, I am watching, and I am surprised at the inaccuracy of your interpretation of some of my posts, and your outright dismissal of some of my other posts (not dismissal on their merit, but dismissal as in, it appears you never read them).

As for the actual topic... I played SkullTag once! Might check out Zandronum one day too.

This isn't the "actual topic."

[DELETE-THIS-ACCOUNT]

Doom drama.

[Lila Feuer]

I'm all out of popcorn.

[Avoozl]

Did Skulltag die due to the releasing of its source code?

[Phobus]

Mogul said:

(not dismissal on their merit, but dismissal as in, it appears you never read them).

I read it all and merely dismissed the merit. As I've said, I don't think your argument has a leg to stand on and there really is very little more than ranting there as far as I'm concerned.

This isn't the "actual topic."

I know :D

[Gez]

Avoozl said:

Did Skulltag die due to the releasing of its source code?

Not at all. It looks more like a redux of the skulltag.net/skulltag.com thing.

As far as open-sourcing goes, Skulltag benefited a lot from it. If you look here, you'll see plenty of commits pulled by Torr but tagged with the name of somebody who did not use to be part of ST's development team.

[Mogul]

Phobus said:

I read it all and merely dismissed the merit.

Sorry you remain unconvinced of my points but at least you raised challenges to them. So big ups, as they say. e: By the way, I'm itching to respond to your criticisms further, but I will honor my commitment to ending my part in this discussion.

[Lila Feuer]

Alright, I think I'm the only one who sees the D2DM1 as being like the Q3 map format and not "telling you what IWAD to load" I never got what anyone around here meant by that.

But do I have a problem with the Q3 map format used for ST's own DM maps, which in themselves were clearly designed around its port and not trying desecrate the original D2 maps?

No.

There are more important things to be concerned with. Like, breathing.

EDIT: Or maybe they should've been called STDM1, there, are the Jimmies no longer rustled? Or does this still cause problems for being the Q3 format? What other format should it be to explain what they are?

[Mogul]

Cyanosis said:

Alright, I think I'm the only one who sees the D2DM1 as being like the Q3 map format and not "telling you what IWAD to load" I never got what anyone around here meant by that.

I was surprised when I first read that explanation, too. And I really disagree with the idea that the "d2" is there to denote the IWAD used. It seems transparently obvious to me that, considering the naming scheme was around well-before Skulltag, that it wouldn't have been used for any purpose ST other than the purpose it had always been used for -- to name the maps themselves.

Cyanosis said:

Or maybe they should've been called STDM1

Pretty sure I suggested that two or three pages ago. It's pretty lulzy how many of my individual points there are that several others in the thread agree with; they just don't necessarily jump all the way in and say, you know Mogul, you're right. As I've maintained since the beginning, the level of offense taken at the naming scheme will vary from person to person but I'm not "brainless," as I've been called, there is an issue here, and I stand by my posts as being very logically sound.

But... now I'm slipping dangerously close to re-entering the fray. At this point I will go full-stop and just not post in the thread. The temptation is too powerful.

[Snakes]

I find it a bit amusing that this argument derailment discussion had a great opening to die about 3 times now and has yet to cease. It's one that's virtually irrelevant and should have probably gone without comment in the first place.

[TimeOfDeath]

BUT PEOPLE WILL THINK STDM1 IS A STRIFE WAD. GEZ SAID SO.

You're funny, Gez.

[esselfortium]

Strife concerns aside, STDM01 is also unnecessarily confusing because it'd be easily mixed up with STST01 for skulltag gamemode maps.

[Qent]

Obviously the solution is to build a pack of Skulltag maps that require the Strife IWAD so that we have no choice.

[esselfortium]

But then using that name would be a pretentious, arrogant attempt to mimic official Strife content! I think...

[40oz]

how about that Odamex?

[DeathevokatioN]

I think yesterday we hit a new record with the amount of forum flamewars going on simultaneously in different threads. :P