Why all the hate for The Chasm?

I didn't have a problem with it back in the day - it provided variation in the level design.

I did, at some point get fed up with it because I entered a phase of "being sick of balancing acts and jumping puzzles" and "just let me kill stuff!", but I believe I'm well past that point.

I myself can get through The Chasm with no problem, but even so, it's still a pile of crap.

rileymartin said:

Yes, but "beatable" does not mean that you'll get balanced and enjoyable gameplay starting that way.

Well, in that case, I think The Chasm was actually funnier played in Pistol start. Especially the start itself with imps & caco pressure while you collect necessities and do some platforming, all to find yourself in a situation where a bit of tactics won't hurt. In continuous it always felt like an unremarkable map with an inescapable nukage pool at the end as a landmark.

24 is the most hardworked level in the third episode after maybe 26 and 29.

I guess players hate arcade in FPS.

I think its an okay map. Wouldn't call it a favourite, but it has its neat moments.

I don't get all the hate either. Yeah it can be a bit of a challenge navigating those narrow walkways with enemies attacking you, but it's not THAT hard. Personally I think it's interesting because it breaks up the levels a bit and makes you play different. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

Having recently had to play it from a pistol start on my quest to beat all the iwad levels in this manner, I will say it is a bitch to play that way. Took me 3 or 4 tries, I forget, but I never felt cheated exactly or that the play was unfair. It was just a little harder than most of the other stock maps that you can beat first try.

It's a good idea in principle, like Circle of O, but it fails in its execution.

I said numerous times that The Chasm should be thrown into the chasm because of its last pit. But since here it is the dedicated thread for this one and only pinnacle of high-quality Doom 2 maps... let me reiterate myself one more time:
- the inescapable damaging floors are inane, because they leave you waiting for death. It could at least be a teleport floor that insta-kills you by telefraging your voodoo doll or something. Did Petersen think it was a good trap? Figures - it is not;
- those stinky Lost Souls waiting to knock you off those tiny platforms!;
- the platform-maze itself is so low that Doomguy should be able to climb out, but he cannot. Out of all slime pits in this level, only the very one without exit looks climbable;
- you can only teleport in there, so you cannot carefully scout the area for those goddamn Souls.
I do not mind the rest of the level (or the narrow ledges), but this last pit condemns it straight into "Satan an**" category. And it comes after the immense fun that is Barrels o' Fun. Coming from map 23 to 24 feels like a hammer to the head.
And Nirvana is NOWHERE as bad. Like, not 'the-same-solar-system-of-badness' close to be as bad as The Chasm.
I think it is enough talking about this horrendous thing of a map...
(at least it was absent in PSX Doom... I WONDER WHY?!)

deadwolves said:

It's a good idea in principle, like Circle of O, but it fails in its execution.

Care to elaborate? What is good about The Chasm's concept?

shotfan said:

(at least it was absent in PSX Doom... I WONDER WHY?!)

It's a large map featuring large areas, so it must have been either due to exceeding the engine's limits to be playable at all, or due to overly low frame rate to be playable well enough.

As people mentioned other maps that are generally seen as bad (Metal, Mount Pain) I find quite funny that somehow these maps are recalled better than the good maps, like if they have something memorable too in their own way.

I never disliked the Chasm, but Looper's demos made me love this map. Both his max run and his speed run are among my absolute favorites. Here they are on his Youtube channel: Speed Max

I'll have to create threads what's bad about Metal and Mount Pain...

...and Nirvana.

NoobBait said:

I never disliked the Chasm, but Looper's demos made me love this map. Both his max run and his speed run are among my absolute favorites. Here they are on his Youtube channel: Speed Max

To be fair most UDoom/Doom 2 maps are awesome when played like speed/max runs. But yeah, Looper's demos are cool stuff.

scifista42 said:

It's a large map featuring large areas, so it must have been either due to exceeding the engine's limits to be playable at all, or due to overly low frame rate to be playable well enough.

Which is why it had to be split in half to get onto the GBA version.

Whats wrong with Nirvana? Its a good map and fun for death matches

I think I'd rather play The Chasm instead of Nirvana. In fact, I would rather play a 32 megawad consisting of nothing but the map Habitat from Final Doom instead of Doom II's bland library brick levels.

I love The Chasm, don't know why people hate this map.

Piper Maru said:

I think I'd rather play The Chasm instead of Nirvana.

Nirvana would have been a considerably better map if its final nukage room had Chasm style catwalks instead of rocks that act like lifts and you having to jump down into the nukage.

The Chasm is fine, to be honest, most of the DOOM II levels were fine to me. Just most of the levels didn't seem very visually compelling, and most of the levels have good concepts, they just failed in execution.

scifista42 said:

Nirvana would have been a considerably better map if its final nukage room had Chasm style catwalks instead of rocks that act like lifts and you having to jump down into the nukage.

Lets travel back in time and assign you to the team behind Doom II!

scifista42 said:

Nirvana would have been a considerably better map if its final nukage room had Chasm style catwalks instead of rocks that act like lifts and you having to jump down into the nukage.

On the plus side, you only have to grab one of the keys because you can slip through the outer doors.

Hi, I've drawn a lot of inspiration from M24s secret tech-part in the large cave section at the start. Also, I like M24 a lot better than M22 or M25 for example. What is said about the ledgewalks and inescapable pits remain truths, however. Thank you, come again.

Played a pistol start on HMP and it was moderate fun to dodge the Caco's. I didn't find the rocket launcher secret until near the end. The blue room is pretty cool and so is the verticality. I'm willing to defend this level from the standpoint of someone going in, using mouselook, and knowing what its shortfalls are ahead of time. But it definitely fails the test of a level that teaches you how to play itself.

Aquanet said:

Played a pistol start on HMP and it was moderate fun to dodge the Caco's. I didn't find the rocket launcher secret until near the end. The blue room is pretty cool and so is the verticality. I'm willing to defend this level from the standpoint of someone going in, using mouselook, and knowing what its shortfalls are ahead of time. But it definitely fails the test of a level that teaches you how to play itself.

I am curious how you are going to defend the final pit, as you have to teleport in there in the dark.

"Hate" is a strong word.
"Challenging" is better IMO.

When I first reached The Chasm, I didn't get pissed off because it had thin walkways. And know this, I did it with keyboard only (dosbox, no idea about the existence of sourceports then, and the mouse felt wrong...).

To hate The Chasm for its infamous walkways, is hating the level it self.

I enjoyed the walking challenge The Chasm gave me.
I enjoyed the running challenge Barrels of Fun gave me.
I enjoyed the horde/ambush challeng Tricks And Traps gave me.
I enjoyed the <X> challenge <Y> gave me.

shotfan said:

I am curious how you are going to defend the final pit, as you have to teleport in there in the dark.

As a historical artifact, playing the Chasm level with such unfair platforming, it's kind of fun. But if you're playing the map cold, the last room is, in most people's book, not very good design as you've already been conditioned by the previous narrow walkway section to think there are escape teleporters at the bottom.

Meanwhile, fair =/= good design and unfair =/= bad design.

I have never personally had a problem with the chasm. Granted the narrow walkways could be a bit of a bitch the first few times around but I liked it for doing something a bit more different. Adding in a more tactical feel to it. I also liked the little underwater part which was nicely done, considering the limits a nice rippling effect with the lights and the water texture on top basic but effective in my eyes.

Wait it's supposed to be underwater? I thought they just put water on the ceiling because it's Hell™.