Brutal Doom creator speaks about past controversies

[AverageDoomguy]

 

He talks about it at 26:00, if you have the chance I recommend you to watch it from the start. Maybe this can clear off the bad image that Sarge may have to some, I hope.

Edited June 10, 2020 by AverageDoomguy

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, AverageDoomguy said:

Maybe this can clear off the bad image that Sarge may have to some, I hope.

What, so he apologised for being racist, trying to convince someone to commit suicide, blatant resource theft and indifference on crediting anybody? I somehow don't believe he's done all that in one video.

[AverageDoomguy]

14 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

What, so he apologised for being racist, trying to convince someone to commit suicide, blatant resource theft and indifference on crediting anybody? I somehow don't believe he's done all that in one video.

He provided some excuses to it, which I believe were right consider his point of view. About he being racist for example, he said it was more of a inside joke on his own, as he was going through a hard time when creating the modification, he was a user of the 4chan stuff as well. Guy was probably 17 to 18 years old at the time. He also admitted that would not do the same thing again, even if it was a joke.

[Edward850]

So excuses, but no actual apology? That's no good, sorry. He needs to own up to his mistakes, not brush them off pretending they weren't his actions. And especially at 17/18, you should be damn well old enough to know when you're being racist.

That also doesn't address the other problems presented at all, and him being a dick as early as 2 years ago.

[AverageDoomguy]

1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

So excuses, but no actual apology? That's no good, sorry. He needs to own up to his mistakes, not brush them off pretending they weren't his actions. And especially at 17/18, you should be damn well old enough to know when you're being racist.

I understand your point, I also honestly kinda of expected him to apologize these things directly. However he did mention that prior to winning the Moddb award for BD64, he told to a friend that most of the credit should go to the Doom community and Kaiser. 

Can't see him as being a bad guy in the community, and he does have some talent at creating some stuff for Doom,  he could have been taken wrong. Like a person telling a "bad joke" to you and you didn't find it funny. And he is possibly not exactly perfect, but can't see no way he would to anything to hurt anyone, even indirectly.

[yourusernamee]

fuck that piece of shit

[Edward850]

12 minutes ago, AverageDoomguy said:

he told to a friend that most of the credit should go to the Doom community and Kaiser. 

But see that's the thing, why isn't/wasn't he saying this to everyone else? This shouldn't be stuff left to weird confessionals, especially considering he's not making all this stuff himself (it actually makes me wonder if he's actually being honest about telling this to "a friend"). And then there's the weird hypocrisies he has, complaining about people taking his work when his work was taking everyone else's:

I'd actually wager that he doesn't actually want to belong as part of the community, so much as he just wants to be the face of it, which is just frankly mean and insulting if so. And aside from his past behaviour, that is currently the key reason why people are sick of him.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Edward850

[CasualScrub]

I mean, if the immediate reaction literally every time Mark is brought up is "fuck that piece of shit" from a sizable userbase, I'd say that maybe we just should stop directly talking about Mark. If his name brings such hostility, than unless he's posting something himself, we should just stop fucking talking about him then.

[silentzorah]

Didn't care then, don't care now.  There is no acceptable excuse.

[Chezza]

If Brutal Doom wasn't ever popular barely a person would raise a eyebrow and just ignore most of his history.

 

But so many people love his work more than most other projects. So what, he has to be some perfect figurehead? I'm not supporting what he did btw, just wanted to point out not everyone is judging purely on his actions.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Chezza

[hypoactive]

You wanna talk about controversy? God fuck, I know this unrelated and pretty petty, but the Brutal Doom discord literally got wiped and actually destroyed over 2 admins going literally apeshit. One of which got super pissed off at some little shit being a little shit, so she banned him. Another one who I never seen talk on the server came out of nowhere and wiped everything. Meanwhile, SGTMKIV was... i don't even know what he was doing when his server was fucking on fire.

[SLON]

Just say that you cannot imagine your life without Mark. An ideal object for hatred, and not because because (gasism, blah-blah), but simply because.

[Gaia74]

I think it is not a good idea to talk about someone when he can see this thread

[Artman2004]

I like Brutal Doom, but I feel like it takes the spotlight from other high quality mods too often, to the point where some of them fade away into obscurity due to no popularity.

[leodoom85]

Past controversies..........

Well........isn't a little bit tad too late for that?

 

Next.

[Spectre01]

4 hours ago, silentzorah said:

Didn't care then, don't care now.  There is no acceptable excuse.

This is exactly why you never apologize on the internet over shit that happened years ago. The hate mob has already made up their minds and will not be appeased either way. See: Any twitter drama over old tweets being dug up.

[seed]

Who cares.

 

Didn't care for him then, definitely won't start doing it now.

[Gerardo194]

Things like this make me sad... When I got here I thought I was gonna meet people that loves Doom which I did, but most of it is just purely competence and arguments between users in other places over the Internet. I know I have done and said bad things here, I'm guilty. 

Things like this really make me feel tired about Doom. Yes! One of the many things I left my twitter account abandoned for now.

 

Belive me:

The more you talk good or bad about Sarge Mark, the more you support it.

The more you talk good about PB, the more you think of Mark.

 

What?? Is he the face of Doom on Youtube, reddit and so on?? NO!

Situations like this make him the face, something to watch or read, like that drama over ZDoom forums years ago... I read it in that time.

I don't hate Mark or Brutal Doom or Project Brutality inspired by Mark's work.

People are right when they claim for their respective credits.

 

Now. I take the decision to send ANY Doom related trends to trash  and spend some fun with the community here making wads if they want.

Doom by Classic id Software joined us all. Trying to be the #1 via Doom causes things like this: division.

That's all folks. Sorry for my English.

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Gerardo194

[mrthejoshmon]

6 hours ago, SLON said:

 (gasism, blah-blah).

Yeah, we need to move passed when Mark said "fuck Flourine, fuckers can't hold a stable molecule, Oxygen is the supreme gas."

[Redneckerz]

A Sgt Mark thread wouldn't be complete without the attention, would it.

 

Because lets be real, the only reason this was posted was to attract a discussion (''Maybe this can clear off the bad image that Sarge may have to some, I hope.''). If you are new like the OP then you might be unaware of the lengthy history regarding Mark. But given the setup, it seems the OP atleast knows something about it.

 

I think what matters here is the following: Seperate the art from the artist.

Explanation:

When it comes to Mark's mod, his art, You can like the mod from its mechanics, or not like it because it is not organized that well. All of that is fair.

However, when it comes to Mark, the artist, then there is a lot more to discuss. A lot of the above responses aren't necessicarily about Mark's work, but rather, his attitude when the controversial situations happened.

 

Mark as an artist tried to employ and cultivate an image of being a hardliner. The controversies that followed suit (Real gore, calling people to kill themselves, not giving credit where credit is due, all under the cloak of ''jokes'' or otherwise) fit that image, as cringe as that was.

 

It became different when Mark, as an artist, deliberately tried to cock up another mod and introduce potential malicious behavior to the end user, his playerbase. That essentially broke character, for lack of a better word, only to resume being in-character again by claiming it was all a ruse and a joke. Like every other time, nobody really laughed.

Get to the point, Red!

What i am trying to say here is that for the more strenuous controverse, i believe it was part of his act as an artist. Not that this makes it any better, but hey, edgy comedians have existed for a long time. The problem with Mark when doing this character is that he isn't a comedian - He is a modder.

 

The slip-up of his character by deliberately blocking another mod over the cloak of a ''joke'' is when Mark's own personality broke off from his character as an artist.

 

And to that i have to simply conclude - I appreciate the mechanics featured in his art (Not necessarily the art itself, because hey, real gore is not really cool to me), but when it comes to the artist, Mark is in-character a terrible comedian and when out of character, just not a pleasant person to discuss with.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Redneckerz : Clarification.

[Jello]

Yeah... I was talking to a coworker about three years ago. I mentioned that I loved classic Doom, and they said they loved Brutal Doom. I gave them a big yeah... 

 

They asked why I didn't like it, and I explained the issue with stealing resources without credit. I mean, that's the big issue for me at least. If you use resources, virtually every person is fine with it as long as they're credited. It's under GPU GNU GPL, just credit the person, but Sgt Mark didn't do that for quite awhile. And then there was the racist 'hidden' code that everyone could see. I mean, that's unacceptable, but really the stolen content is what pissed me off. Eventually he did credit the people's work that he used, but that was only after BD became a huge hit, and he really had to address it.

 

Don't get me wrong, Brutal Doom can be fun. But the way that Sgt Mark handled everything was bad. And the way that everyone expects every .wad to be tailored to it is irritating. It's almost a 30 year old game at this point, an 8 year old mod doesn't represent the original gameplay, and not every .wad needs to be tailored to it.

 

Edit: Corrected GPU to GNU GPL. It's been a long day. And I need to get to bed so I can get up and get my windshield replaced due to hail damage.

 

But I thought about it, and the thing that really irritates me about Brutal Doom was that he started a Patreon account or some damn thing, asking for donations, before he actually started crediting people for the things he took from them and put in Brutal Doom. Taking a game with a public source, taking things from other people and putting them in the mod, and then asking for money is just kind of shitty.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jello

[seablock]

not interested until he apologizes for making brutal doom, THEN we can get talkin

[Vic Vos]

R E N T
F R E E

[jazzmaster9]

With all the talk surrounding Mark, I never actually heard his voice so this is going to be an interesting listen.

 

also with the topic at hand, This Thread is going to be good popcorn content.

[Nine Inch Heels]

Off-topic:

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

A Sgt Mark thread wouldn't be complete without the attention, would it.

Yes, which is the reason you're participating just like everybody else...

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Because lets be real, the only reason this was posted was to attract a discussion

Yes, that's why threads are made in the first place, Sherlock...

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

If you are new like the OP then you might be unaware of the lengthy history regarding Mark. But given the setup, it seems the OP atleast knows something about it.

For somebody whose account is still at a toddler's age you sure talk quite big, so either you've been lurking for quite a bit of time, or somebody's hit you with "all the hot lore". What makes you think you're any different from the OP in that regard, and why even bring it up in the first place? What even is the damn point of this? Is the idea to make yourself look smarter than the OP by pointing out that they know "something", which by extension implies that you might know more than they do? I'm just asking because that's how this reads, and I find it both boring and pretentious in equal measure, to be perfectly honest.

 

On-topic:

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

I think what matters here is the following: Seperate the art from the artist.

Explanation:

When it comes to Mark's mod, his art, You can like the mod from its mechanics, or not like it because it is not organized that well. All of that is fair.

However, when it comes to Mark, the artist, then there is a lot more to discuss. A lot of the above responses aren't necessicarily about Mark's work, but rather, his attitude when the controversial situations happened.

 

Mark as an artist tried to employ and cultivate an image of being a hardliner. The controversies that followed suit (Real gore, calling people to kill themselves, all under the cloak of ''jokes'') fit that image, as cringe as that was.

 

It became different when Mark, as an artist, deliberately tried to cock up another mod and introduce potential malicious behavior to the end user, his playerbase. That essentially broke character, for lack of a better word, only to resume being in-character again by claiming it was all a ruse and a joke. Like every other time, nobody really laughed.

Well I'll be damned, finally you're actually trying to say anything about the topic itself...

 

So first things first... There is quite a lot to discuss when it comes to the art that has been put forth, such as where all the assets came from, who created said assets, who has been credited properly for the creation of said assets and who hasn't (for the longest time anyway), and the cherry on top: Who has been making money off of the mod we're discussing here, and who hasn't gotten any money despite being a contributor to the project (credited or not), etc... And that begs not only the question how it reflects on Mark as a person, but it also puts the art itself into question by virtue of it not being just one single person's creation entirely.

 

Also, the art on display is, if I read your comment here correctly, a reflection of Mark's "edgy-comedy-persona", or it can at least be considered such, and when viewed under that lens, then art and artist are inseparable with regards to the bigger picture. You can, of course, discuss both individually and sidestep Mark's persona "mechanically", but nobody is obligated to do so. I can easily make a case here for why separating art and artist could be a bad thing, by simply pointing towards art made by video game studios which are notorious for immoral and predatory micro transaction schemes, and that's gonna subject the whole "separate art from artist" line of arguing to pretty thin air as well.

 

Next up the image you say Mark has been trying to establish: If you actually clicked the video and gave it a listen for just a few minutes, then you'd come across the important detail Mark puts forth as an explanation for his "brand of humour". And you know what? I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to edgy jokes like that one infamous comment that was part of Brutal Doom's Plasma Rifle code. But one thing I'm not ever going to buy into, language barriers and 4chan-piss-takes be damned, is the whole situation that revolved around the part where he supposedly told a person to kill themselves, because A) that's not what happened (or at least it wasn't what raised eyebrows), and B) what Mark actually did to the best of my knowledge was way worse than just dropping a "KYS" on an internet forum and calling it a day. But it sure is good that both you and the OP know "something"...

 

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Get to the point, Red!

What i am trying to say here is that for the more strenuous controverse, i believe it was part of his act as an artist. Not that this makes it any better, but hey, edgy comedians have existed for a long time. The problem with Mark when doing this character is that he isn't a comedian - He is a modder.

 

The slip-up of his character by deliberately blocking another mod over the cloak of a ''joke'' is when Mark's own personality broke off from his character as an artist.

 

And to that i have to simply conclude - I appreciate the mechanics featured in his art (Not necessarily the art itself, because hey, real gore is not really cool to me), but when it comes to the artist, Mark is in-character a terrible comedian and when out of character, just not a pleasant person to discuss with.

Okay so basically you're saying again what you've already said in the previous paragraphs for the most part, wonderful...

 

 

Have a nice day...

Edited June 11, 2020 by Nine Inch Heels

[seed]

57 minutes ago, daisuki milk said:

not interested until he apologizes for making brutal doom, THEN we can get talkin

 

I mean... I'm very far from being a BD fan, but this is extremely childish, if not also petty.

 

I am sure that Mark "owes" us an apology for making the mod he wanted to and many people ended up enjoying too. Sure buddy.

[Gez]

8 hours ago, hypoactive said:

You wanna talk about controversy? God fuck, I know this unrelated and pretty petty, but the Brutal Doom discord literally got wiped and actually destroyed over 2 admins going literally apeshit. One of which got super pissed off at some little shit being a little shit, so she banned him. Another one who I never seen talk on the server came out of nowhere and wiped everything. Meanwhile, SGTMKIV was... i don't even know what he was doing when his server was fucking on fire.

People surprised about Discord servers going to shit should look up the meaning of "discord" in a dictionary.

[seablock]

25 minutes ago, seed said:

 

I mean... I'm very far from being a BD fan, but this is extremely childish, if not also petty.

 

I am sure that Mark "owes" us an apology for making the mod he wanted to and many people ended up enjoying too. Sure buddy.

I find it rather shallow and pedantic myself.

[seed]

9 minutes ago, Gez said:

People surprised about Discord servers going to shit should look up the meaning of "discord" in a dictionary.

 

"Silence the discord... "

 

3 minutes ago, daisuki milk said:

I find it rather shallow and pedantic myself.

 

Maybe so, but demanding an apology for Mark making something you ended up not enjoying is still petty.

[seablock]

Just now, seed said:

Maybe so, but demanding an apology for Mark making something you ended up not enjoying is still petty.

it was a joke. not the funniest or most clever joke in the world but a joke regardless. i never DEMANDED he apologize for creating a mod