Could you enjoy "3D" games limited to a 2D square grid (Wolf3D, ROTT)?

[Hisymak]

In the early time of 3D first-person shooters, there were many limitations to the game's engines, which was not a full unlimited 3D space. Some games were so much limited, that the maps could consist only of orthogonal walls bound to a static 2D grid. The most important example us Wolf3D, which was basically a "glorified" 2D maze with addition of doors, weapons, enemies, and pickup items. There were some more similar games, like Blake Stone, which had just a little more variety and gameplay mechanics. ROTT was more advanced, it had vertical movement and some more vertical variation, but still the greatest limitation was there. Another example is a lesser-known game CyClones, which was yet more advanced in the aspect of room-over-room possibility.

The biggest problem of those games is, that they can be... eh, pretty much boring. Witch such limitations, there's really not much you can do with the level design (compared to Doom, where you can do pretty much "anything you like"). All the levels look same-y and get uninteresting after completing a few levels. For example I never played all Wolf3D episodes, and never finished ROTT for such reason. It also feels like there's "Quantity-over-quality" problem. As the level design is simple-y, it's pretty easy to make a lot of levels. On the other hand, Duke3D or Quake feel quite short and like they have few stock levels, as they're much more detailed and take plenty of work to make.

The special case is CyClones. It has engine with maybe even better possibilities than ROTT, but it has two main problems: the gameplay sucks and the level design is pretty much bad with majority of levels not taking full advantage of all the engine features and falling back to Wold3D-esque design. The first level feels like the best level of all the game in terms of engine utilization.

So what's your opinion? Can you enjoy those games, or suffer from the same problem like me?

[DNSKILL5]

I enjoy Wolfenstein 3D. There’s a lot of mods that add more variety to the gameplay and use more advanced texturing and detailing than the base game, but I still enjoy the original game and making levels for it.
 

Maybe I have a deeper sense of imagination, but I don’t just see endless mazes. Wolfenstein 3D feels like an arcade game for me and each episode is a different scenario. Spear of Destiny mixed things up better in my opinion, and it was also shorter.

 

I think the biggest problem is that Wolf 3D clearly was only intended to have episodes 1-3. The 4-6 episodes feel a bit more rushed and asides from different textures and bosses it offers nothing new otherwise. 
 

While the Mac Wolf version (which was based off the SNES version maps) is often bitched about not having fully directional guards, I find the level format to be better paced than the original DOS version. 30 maps with bosses in between every few stages much like SOD. 

[CrocMagnum]

Quote

...ROTT was more advanced, it had vertical movement and some more vertical variation, but still the greatest limitation was there. Another example is a lesser-known game CyClones, which was yet more advanced in the aspect of room-over-room possibility.

The biggest problem of those games is, that they can be... eh, pretty much boring...

Rise of the Triad appeals to me for some reason. Despite the actual limitations of the engine you mentioned, I'm still amazed about the sheer number of secrets the devs could cram into this game: I mean "43 Secrets Walls" in Map 1 to give you an idea. 

 

In the end, I feel it's the Devs, whith their talent and creativity, who make the difference. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by CrocMagnum

[RataUnderground]

The only one of that type of game I like is Blake Stone. Maybe it's because it was my first FPS, but I still find it has a lot of charm and enough variety.

[Rudolph]

I have my issues with Wolf3D and especially RoTT, but I do love Locomalito's 8Bit Killer.

[Andrea Rovenski]

i love wolfenstein 3d so much

[Master O]

https://www.gog.com/forum/wolfenstein_series/helpful_wolfenstein_3d_sourceport_and_discord_links

 

https://www.gog.com/forum/rise_of_the_triad_series/rott_dark_war_icculus_sourceport_quick_setup

 

https://www.gog.com/forum/rise_of_the_triad_series/rottexpr_rott_dark_war_souceport_now_with_a_windows_binary

[Remilia Scarlet]

Definitely.  I fucking love ROTT.  Wolf3d I also enjoy, but much less than ROTT.  As long as there's some variation in the level (which ROTT has just enough of, imo), it's fun.

[BGreener]

1 hour ago, Hisymak said:

So what's your opinion? Can you enjoy those games, or suffer from the same problem like me?

It varies. I can still go back and enjoy RotT and Wolf3D, but I couldn’t get into Chasm The Rift when I tried it for the first time recently. I might give it another go now that I’m more aware of what to expect.

 

”Limited, gridlike” level design isn’t much of a turnoff by itself. HROT came out recently and has been a boxy blast.

[Solmyr]

I find vanilla Wolfenstein 3D/Spear of Destiny pretty boring for the same reasons and for some reason it gives me a headache if i play for more than one hour, now modded Wolf3D/Spear of Destiny is the opposite experience even with the limitations of level design, maybe it's the lack of enemy variety and limited textures what holds original Wolfenstein 3D games back.

 

RotT on the other hand is like the Wolf 3D mods, it doesn't get boring to play after an hour or so.

[Jaska]

Sure! I liked Blake stone back in the days. But even more I liked Ultima underworld and System shock 1. Those had a bit more variation ofc. ROTT was fun for a short amount on time.

[Al-Faris M]

I really enjoyed playing Wolf3D from Episode 1-3, it's very arcade-like from the gameplay, visuals and even soundtrack. But I did get bored after completing Episode 3, maybe it's the lack of interesting level design, the repetitive hitscan enemies, or the lack of new weapons. ROTT looks cooler but I haven't played it yet.

[RataUnderground]

3 minutes ago, Jaska said:

Sure! I liked Blake stone back in the days. But even more I liked Ultima underworld and System shock 1. Those had a bit more variation ofc. ROTT was fun for a short amount on time.

Those games are the opposite extreme, real 3D! I mean... polygonal scenarios, not BSP based like Doom.

[PsychEyeball]

I think ROTT does well enough with its game elements to not be boring for most of its runthrough (barring maybe Episode 4 because of the monks with their ridiculously high health) and it helps that the game does introduce something new every episode. Plus it's not 60 levels long like some of its peers such as Wolfenstein 3D and Blake Stone.

 

Wolf 3D blows its load too fast by having you kill Hitler in Episode 3. Now that is a worthy game ender. Why are there 3 episodes after this again now? And finally, none of these episodes do anything new so there's even less incentive to play them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Wolfenstein 3D. But I'll never play anything past Episode 3 from it ever because I see no need to do so.

[LadyMistDragon]

Theoretically, I probably could if the game wasn't too long and there was a serious effort at making detailed spaces, but the problem is the both Wolfenstein 3D and Blake Stone are examples of the former, whereas I'm still not sure where Rise of the Triad is supposed to be other than some island in the middle of the South China Sea that seemingly has temples and rocks and stuff, but I never got far in it (only know how it is later because of videos) because it was just less believable than something not quite seen yet like a military installation on Phobos in Doom. The bland color palette and mandatory pushwalls weren't exactly an incentive to keep playing either.

 

But yes, if it trimmed the fat and was colored like Blake Stone with decent environmental variety, it would be fine.

Edited May 24, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Scypek2]

2 hours ago, Hisymak said:

Witch such limitations, there's really not much you can do with the level design

 

Skill issue. There's so much you can do with just locked doors and sound propagation. I've made hundreds of Wolf levels and I'm still coming up with new stuff, without even having to do any serious code changes.

[Andrea Rovenski]

34 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

Why are there 3 episodes after this again now? And finally, none of these episodes do anything new so there's even less incentive to play them.

4-6 take place as a prequel and were added later on as a pseudo expansion. ep6 is by far my favorite because the levels and bosses are awesome.

 

[magicsofa]

Yeah, Wolf3D is a lot more fun with better level design.

 

There are other things that contribute to you getting bored, I'm sure. Wolf3D suffers from having a completely linear arsenal for the player to use, ironically the knife is the most interesting weapon, and the chaingun is weirdly un-satisfying. There's a tiny bit more variety in the enemies, but that's mostly represented by one extremely annoying enemy that appears frequently, and a couple less-annoying enemies that only appear on specific levels.

 

Because of the lack of variety in weapons/enemies, it's even more crucial for the map itself to be well-designed in order to provide engaging gameplay. And some of the original levels play quite well... but a large portion of them were slapped together in a very short time and shipped out the door.

[Graf Zahl]

ROTT yes. Wolfenstein not so much. The engine is just too limited and after a handful of levels boredom quickly sets in. There's just not enough variety in the level design.

 

[Noiser]

I love most of "wolf3D clones". Wolf3D, Blake Stone, Corridor 7, Nitemare 3D. Each one have their own atributes and game ideas, besides they look pretty cute. It's a different kind of game, made for people who likes dungeon crawler exploration with a Gauntlet-style combat system. Even some of the fire mechanics are distinct (hitscan for example), so If you try to play them as it is Doom you will get frustrated.
 

Rise of the Triad is a different case though. Despite using the Wolf3D engine, it's pretty clear they were trying to compete with Doom, so I always put it together with Doom clones. I think they succeded on create a unique experience at least. The huge variety in gimmicks compensates the limited layout of the levels in my opinion. There's also the inclusion of platforms which can be used to create "room over room" scenarios, something that would not be possible in Doom.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Noiser

[TasAcri]

No, i never could. Even in 1992 i thought the levels in Wolf3D were very repetitive. After i got used to the nice, smooth 3D first person perspective, i got bored.

 

Vanilla DOOM engine is the minimum i can accept.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Noiser said:

Rise of the Triad is a different case though. Despite using the Wolf3D engine, it's pretty clear they were trying to compete with Doom, so I always put it together with Doom clones. I think they succeded on create a unique experience at least. The huge variety in gimmicks compensates the limited layout of the levels in my opinion. There's also the inclusion of platforms which can be used to create "room over room" scenarios, something that would not be possible in Doom.

So in a sense, RoTT tried to Doom what Sonic was to Super Mario Bros?

[Azuris]

With a modern Port, that allows a Map, they are enjoyable.

They are more a quick simple Fun, but Fun is Fun ;)

 

It is a bit ironic that the SNES Port of Wolfenstein had a Map.

Have a MSU Version here with great Soundtrack.

 

Games of that kind i play every here and there.

 

Catacomb 3D Games 

@Arno Topic again haha

 

Wolfenstein 3D

 

And even Super 3D Noahs Ark

 

As said, quick and fun and not for a very long play session

Sometimes you just want to run through a laberinthian Level and kill some Enemies.

 

[bofu]

There are a number of Wolf3D mods that do interesting things with the limited engine. I recommend checking out Wasserstein, Spear Resurrected/End of Destiny, and Coffee Break for some examples of how to improve the Wolf3D formula while still being on a 2D grid.

[wuunds]

Oh yeah I can enjoy ROTT but you know a game I can really enjoy? Chasm The Rift! That game is awesome but its also stuck in that 2D grid kinda and I adore how much it tries to hide it with a lot of 3D models and such.

[ReaperAA]

1 minute ago, wuunds said:

Oh yeah I can enjoy ROTT but you know a game I can really enjoy? Chasm The Rift! That game is awesome but its also stuck in that 2D grid kinda and I adore how much it tries to hide it with a lot of 3D models and such.

 

Was just gonna comment about Chasm the Rift myself. I don't enjoy Wolf3D and I haven't given ROTT a proper chance yet. But I absolutely love Chasm.

 

For me, it's not the 2D grid level design that is a problem by itself, but atleast in Wolf3d's case, it was lack of environmental and enemy type (enemies that aren't similar in their attack behavior) variety, coupled with the dungeon crawler style level design that really really turned me off.

 

Chasm doesn't have those issues. It never overstays it's welcome due to episode being just 4 maps long and the next episode has entirely new enemies/aesthetics. Plus, it's adorable how the designers tried to hide the limited nature of the engine.

[Devalaous]

Wolf 3D is still fun in source ports like EC Wolf, but I can only handle it for so long before I need a break. Patiently waiting for EC Wolf to start supporting the other Wolf 3D engine games, since pretty much all of them are now sold on GoG.

[Geniraul]

In Wolfenstein 3D the intriguing gameplay, cheerful sounds and impressive texturing alongside diversified color palette are here, so the overall feeling of an entertaining arcade-like game never leaves me. Therefore, I definitely do enjoy that.

[Master O]

6 hours ago, Jaska said:

Sure! I liked Blake stone back in the days. But even more I liked Ultima underworld and System shock 1. Those had a bit more variation ofc. ROTT was fun for a short amount on time.

 

https://bibendovsky.github.io/bstone/ (Bstone source port for Aliens of Gold and Planet Strike)

 

http://jalu.ch/misc/bstone/#m32 (shows all secrets for Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold only)

 

 

[banjiepixel]

There is nothing wrong with 2d square grid, I like how it makes the levels feel like more pure mazes and gives the game feel more like some classic Wizardly style dungeon crawl rpg. It's the rest of the gameplay design of games like Wolf3d or ROTT that I don't like as much as Doom. The 2d square grid format obviously does work better as turn based RPG as seen in Wolfenstein/Doom RPG games but action game format would also work great with correct gameplay design. I feel like Project Warlock is a pretty good example of this.