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(empty)
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Maes said:
Cool down, (empty). I'm an acquired taste. If I met you IRL, I probably wouldn't consider you worthy of drinking a glass of water together, so the feeling is kinda mutual, if that'd make you feel better.

I was thinking of asking you to post a rational justification of exactly what part of my post (believing in the individual's right to go down fighting? The right NOT to have to end up having to make such choices?), but when I saw your other posts, I classed you as a spineless petite burgeoise pseudo-moralist, and decided that any attempts at discussion (let alone re-education) would be fruitless. I just wish that you never have to truly fight for anything you value. So stick with my original witty response and, try acquiring that taste.


I'd stick with your witty response provided you were capable of making one.

Old Post 12-15-12 01:00 #
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Maes
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Well, you can always try to address my points, then. Or we can just keep playing the dozens.

However, just for you, I'll finish Postal 2 three times over this w/end.

Edit: I'll also watch Zippocat, and read some subversive G-Files to make ninja poisons.


spoiler - highlight to read:

I think (empty) must be having some "bad thoughts" involving revenge and putting certain people in their place right now. Noooo (empty), do not have such thoughts! They are bad, and only horrible persons have them! Don't be a horrible person, (empty)

Last edited by Maes on 12-15-12 at 01:10

Old Post 12-15-12 01:02 #
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(empty)
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I briefly considered addressing your points, then realized that given the increasing odds that you're a troll, it's really not worth my time to converse with you further.

Think I'll go play Doom instead.

Old Post 12-15-12 01:09 #
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Maes
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(empty) said:
I briefly considered addressing your points, then realized that given the increasing odds that you're a troll, it's really not worth my time to converse with you further.


Not wanting is one thing, not being capable is another. Slightly rewording my elaborately crafted response to your first round of bleating and degenerating it by use of the "T" word... tsk tsk. Quelle banalité.

I wonder what happens if two -real- trolls troll one another? Reminds me of a real-life incident where two psychiatrists met in a lobby, each informed of the fact that they had to meet with a psychiatric patient whose disorder was exactly impersonating a psychiatrist. Needless to say, they had a very "interesting" meeting, and mutually prescribed institutionalization ;-)

Old Post 12-15-12 01:15 #
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Membrain
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I do love logging onto Facebook and seeing relatives using this as an excuse to push political agendas. I'm sorry, but forcing kids to pray to your god isn't going to stop school shootings.

Bleagh.

Old Post 12-15-12 02:08 #
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fraggle
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Membrain said:
I do love logging onto Facebook and seeing relatives using this as an excuse to push political agendas. I'm sorry, but forcing kids to pray to your god isn't going to stop school shootings.

Kind of sickening, but I think some people just see everything through religious-tinted spectacles. There are some people who genuinely seem to believe that there's a causative link between prayer being taken out of schools and things like this occurring. Deeply delusional no doubt, but you can't really argue against it without dismantling the entire way they've taught themselves to look at the world.

Bonus link: your comment reminded me of this.

Old Post 12-15-12 02:36 #
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BloodyAcid
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Annnnnnnd this is why capital punishment should exist. Not to accuse petty deaths (as in, per se, accidents) but for these big time slaughterers.

My heart goes out to the people genuinely affected by this tragedy. By that, I mean not to the senseless sarcastic idiots spouting rubbish across the internet about the justifications behind this incident.

Old Post 12-15-12 02:42 #
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Mike.Reiner
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(empty) said:
This is my usual response to every shooting, even though it's from 2009.[/B]


*sigh*... I hate the media.

Thank you for sharing this, Empty.

Old Post 12-15-12 04:37 #
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Marcaek
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BloodyAcid said:
Annnnnnnd this is why capital punishment should exist. Not to accuse petty deaths (as in, per se, accidents) but for these big time slaughterers.

My heart goes out to the people genuinely affected by this tragedy. By that, I mean not to the senseless sarcastic idiots spouting rubbish across the internet about the justifications behind this incident.



You're ignoring the reasons why the death penalty is considered a bad thing in the first place.

Not that it matters all too much as these killers almost always either kill themselves or choose suicide by cop.

Old Post 12-15-12 04:59 #
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gggmork
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It might be possible for someone with an agenda, such as banning guns, to blow some of the drug called devil's breath (posted a link to a documentary about it in the docs thread) in the face of someone to turn them into a manchurian candidate (uh, I think they did that in naked gun too) patsy and tell them to shoot up a school/etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

I'm interested in agorism/voluntaryism so think the whole "compulsory" part of child/adolescent "education"/prison systems has to go. The near ubliquitousness of government run tax (legal theft) funded compulsory education makes people accustomed to it and not recognize it as a social ill that grows children into sick adults. That institution made me hate myself when I was younger and really stunted my development/spirit/mentally/physically. Compulsory teaching is literally propaganda, whereas voluntary self directed learning is freedom. Like say you have 2 possible teachers, richard dawkins and mr. T. You're like, um I choose dawkins please, and the system is like NO, WE'RE THE AUTHORITIES, YOUR TEACHER WILL BE MR T.; he has tenure and we can't fire him. Thanks for paying for his salary with your taxes too. And he makes you take tests about the a-team and pitying the foo that sap all your time which you would prefer to use learning from dawkins. And that's just the brainwashing part; the lord of the flies survival of the fittest was worse.

Guns can be used to prevent crime as well as commit it. Like if each teacher could voluntarily choose to have a gun or not, one of them might have taken out a crazy shooter before doing too much damage.

Old Post 12-15-12 06:06 #
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Jesus. What's with the libertarians coming out of the woodwork in the past few years??
Sorry, guy. We're not going to toss out 4000 years of democracy just because you think the social contract is bullshit.

Old Post 12-15-12 06:24 #
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geekmarine
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What rational teacher would carry a gun? Yeah, totally a great way of building a connection with your students, suggesting that you might one day decide to shoot one of them. In education, violence of any kind is a last resort, because you can't form bonds of trust with an ever-present threat of punishment looming overhead. I've been trained to take down and restrain a student, for example, but I only ever use that training in the most dire of circumstances. You can't ignore the importance of the student/teacher relationship, and part of that relationship is the understanding that the classroom is a safe place to be.

Old Post 12-15-12 08:09 #
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GreyGhost
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NiTROACTiVE said:
We need to place security systems in schools and other areas that can detect firearms so that police an stop the person before he/she goes on a rampage.
I heard that the school has a secured entrance but the gunman managed to gain access by knocking repeatedly at another door.

Old Post 12-15-12 09:50 #
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Csonicgo


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gggmork said:
It might be possible for someone with an agenda, such as banning guns, to blow some of the drug called devil's breath (posted a link to a documentary about it in the docs thread) in the face of someone to turn them into a manchurian candidate (uh, I think they did that in naked gun too) patsy and tell them to shoot up a school/etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

I'm interested in agorism/voluntaryism so think the whole "compulsory" part of child/adolescent "education"/prison systems has to go. The near ubliquitousness of government run tax (legal theft) funded compulsory education makes people accustomed to it and not recognize it as a social ill that grows children into sick adults. That institution made me hate myself when I was younger and really stunted my development/spirit/mentally/physically. Compulsory teaching is literally propaganda, whereas voluntary self directed learning is freedom. Like say you have 2 possible teachers, richard dawkins and mr. T. You're like, um I choose dawkins please, and the system is like NO, WE'RE THE AUTHORITIES, YOUR TEACHER WILL BE MR T.; he has tenure and we can't fire him. Thanks for paying for his salary with your taxes too. And he makes you take tests about the a-team and pitying the foo that sap all your time which you would prefer to use learning from dawkins. And that's just the brainwashing part; the lord of the flies survival of the fittest was worse.

Guns can be used to prevent crime as well as commit it. Like if each teacher could voluntarily choose to have a gun or not, one of them might have taken out a crazy shooter before doing too much damage.



Are you done making fun of this massacre yet? Or are you this stupid?

Old Post 12-15-12 11:16 #
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Old Post 12-15-12 14:34 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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aghhhh this happens again, so much school shooting happens in US! What I think is that the Gun laws in US should be change.......to stricter. I know that most Taiwanese students will choose to study in US after university. But not for me, I am worried about the safety and discrimination since I am a kid.

Last edited by Daiyu_Xiaoxiang on 12-15-12 at 15:09

Old Post 12-15-12 14:44 #
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Maes
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang said:
so much gun fights happens in US!


Many more "gun fights" (aka vs an equally armed opponent) happen in Africa, the Middle East and in the US ghettos. School shootings tend to be more of a one-sided turkey shoot/target practice.

Old Post 12-15-12 14:46 #
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Mike.Reiner
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geekmarine said:
What rational teacher would carry a gun? Yeah, totally a great way of building a connection with your students, suggesting that you might one day decide to shoot one of them./B]


Well from the sounds of it, all the teachers were very rationale by your standards at the school this shooting took place.

They couldn't do anything to stop this mad man, and now 20+ kids are dead.

Also, I find your statement more offensive than you probably intend it to be. As if to imply that if one of the kids ever asked about the gun on their hip (assuming it wasn't concealed), that any teacher with the mindset to carry would reply with something to the effect of "I'll shoot you if you don't behave." Repulsive thought, I apologize.


Daiyu_Xiaoxiang said:
[B]aghhhh this happens again, so much school shooting happens in US! What I think is that the Gun laws in US should be change.......to stricter. I know that most Taiwanese students will choose to study in US after university. But not for me, I am worried about the safety and discrimination since I am a kid.



I'm so tired of this nonsense. We can't win, every time a potential mass murderer gets stopped by a good person with a gun you never hear about it, but whenever a mass murder does take place we get completely demonized.

The most dangerous people are the ones that are insane but keep it to themselves until the last moment. You know, the kid the neighbors said was so nice. Clean background, no reported mental illnesses, everybody loves him, and then he goes on a fucking rampage because he's insane and wants to kill as many people as possible.

How do you keep guns out of the hands of somebody like that? The next step is to target people who fit his pre-rampage image and start disarming them.. And basic logic makes it clear that disarming us through legal means isn't a very effective method of disarming criminals who didn't read the sign that said no guns to begin with.

There's no point in discussing this here, I'm sure anybody here who is anti-gun will chime in to call me an idiot now, but those are my frustrations.

Old Post 12-16-12 00:06 #
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Eris Falling
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Mike.Reiner said:
I'm so tired of this nonsense. We can't win, every time a potential mass murderer gets stopped by a good person with a gun you never hear about it, but whenever a mass murder does take place we get completely demonized.



Well, my opinion on that (if it's valid) is that; of course it isn't ALL Americans who are mass murderers, but there's a hell of a lot. How do you know who is a mass murderer and who isn't?
Of course, this applies worldwide but, as this image will say for me
http://www.adweek.com/files/imagecache/node-blog/blogs/stop_handguns.png

Old Post 12-16-12 00:12 #
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myk
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Membrain said:
I do love logging onto Facebook and seeing relatives using this as an excuse to push political agendas.
You should. In any case, you can always dislike or denounce what you feel are poor or harmful political agendas or takes. If people don't react politically to this, it will never change, and the people most hit by it are the most entitled to start doing so. A "nonpartisan" society where politics is just the sphere of professional politicians which both exclude the population and are the scapegoat of every issue is not a democracy. You were concerned about religious political activism but that resulted in you deriding political reaction.


BloodyAcid said:
Annnnnnnd this is why capital punishment should exist. Not to accuse petty deaths (as in, per se, accidents) but for these big time slaughterers.
In some sense, I have more respect for murderers than for people asking for the most powerful (hopefully) thing in any nation to kill people they don't think worthy of life.

Old Post 12-16-12 00:14 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Eris Falling said:


Well, my opinion on that (if it's valid) is that; of course it isn't ALL Americans who are mass murderers, but there's a hell of a lot. How do you know who is a mass murderer and who isn't?
Of course, this applies worldwide but, as this image will say for me



All that image tells me is what I already know: The US has a lot of bad people in it, and that's why I carry a gun.

I envy Switzerland and Japan. In Switzerland guns are very common, and in Japan they are not. They are very illegal in Japan and many gun control advocates look to Japan as their idol.

The difference is in their societies. crime overall is much lower per capita in both of those countries, and that translates over into their firearms statistics. I love both of those countries, I wouldn't be opposed to fully disarming and moving over to Japan for the rest of my life.

Old Post 12-16-12 00:20 #
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NiTROACTiVE
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Hey guys they just identified the 26 victims of the school shooting that happened in Connecticut. This article lists the names and ages of the victims.

What's really sad about this is that all of the children who were killed were ages 6 to 7 and it's really sad that so many children at those ages got killed and the families of the victims must be going through a painful time, and my condolences go to all those families of the deceased.

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Last edited by NiTROACTiVE on 12-16-12 at 06:42

Old Post 12-16-12 03:54 #
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Lizardcommando
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All those young lives lost... goddamn... this is just horrible.

Old Post 12-16-12 08:47 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Very sad news indeed. My condolences to everyone affected. :(

This gun regulation frenzy won't end until there are regulations put on top of regulations until finally there are no legal guns left, and it shows in that a lot of the people who'll say "gun control isn't the same as disarming" will also go on to make another argument about how guns won't help you in a dangerous situation anyway, there has been plenty of situations where lives have been lost as a direct result of gun regulation as well. And then I predict the only people who will have guns will be the psychopathic lunatics that are responsible for killing millions of children in the Middle East (let alone the people America has killed indirectly by establishing and supporting murderous puppet dictatorships in Africa). When Obama sheds a tear and makes a speech condemning this tragedy when he just recently killed 150 children in Pakistan with drone strikes, I cant tell whether he's being sincere or not.


(empty) said:
This is my usual response to every shooting, even though it's from 2009.
Thanks for the link.

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on 12-16-12 at 09:55

Old Post 12-16-12 09:50 #
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myk
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Mike.Reiner said:
I envy Switzerland and Japan.
Both cases are very unlike the US. Japan was basically disarmed by the US after World War II, much like Germany, and Switzerland is a neutral "bank of the West" country with a militia instead of a professional army. We could take Britain and Canada as two cases that are more like the US. Canada has liberal gun ownership although unlike the US its role in international conflicts is smaller or secondary. Britain, on the other hand, has a more active role in international conflicts, approximating the US in that sense, but restrictive gun laws. The US practices colonial or invasive military activities, which requires glorifying the military and indoctrinating the population on how correct it is for it to be strutting around the world, and has liberal gun laws on top of that. Add to this highly competitive "you're on your own" jungle capitalism policies and ideals, and what else can you get than occasional freak attacks like this one, with all the guns lying around? If the nation teaches its people that kicking ass is the way you get anywhere, they will do it too on their level and in their way.


DeathevokatioN said:
and it shows in that a lot of the people who'll say "gun control isn't the same as disarming" will also go on to make another argument about how guns won't help you in a dangerous situation anyway, there has been plenty of situations where lives have been lost as a direct result of gun regulation as well.
You always have some people that stretch arguments in any camp, so that's not really evidence. You're just depicting people with more restrictive gun policy ideas as people who want to ban all guns.

There are situations where people with guns can stop violence, but even those need regulation. A gun at home may be more or less understandable, or even at a store, although the more public the situation, the more a warning may be necessary, such as an "armed guards present" sign. Uncertainty is a big factor in violence and violent death. An undercover cop, an armed officer that's not in service or an armed civilian can be in danger or increase danger if armed criminals show up because of how they may react if he tries to draw the weapon, and from what they may do to him if he doesn't and they spot his weapon. That situation may force violence that wouldn't happen if victims weren't armed or if the cop were easily identifiable. In the latter case because it's likely the criminals will go look for an easier opportunity, instead of facing a cop. Private and undeclared armed defense can stop crime, like theft or even some aggressions, but it's not as good at saving lives, even while it can still do so sometimes. The real question behind all this is how much private property is worth compared to lives and peace.

Old Post 12-16-12 10:30 #
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Gez
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The societal angle is where it's at.

There is a sort of glorification of the killers. It's pervasive and expressed in other ways (look at all these novels and movies about serial killers; everybody know Hannibal Lecter, but "Will Graham" or "Clarice Starling" won't ring as many bells). The killers are the heroes; they are demigods (Jason, Freddie, etc.). Part of this may be just thrill seeking, since horror movies don't always use a human killer; but there definitely is some sort of idolization of the killers.

There is also idolization of the guns, in the USA. They are a symbol of everything, from freedom to heroism to power and to manifest destiny.

Finally, there is the hypercompetitive society, where people are divided into "useless losers, burdens on society" on one hand and "winners" on the other. A human's worth is entirely and exclusively defined by how much money they have. What better way to be a winner than to make sure the rest are losers by killing them?

By becoming a mass-killing shooter, you know you will become a legend. People will talk about you, obsess about the minutia of your life, everyone will know your name and see your face. You won't get a meager fifteen minutes of fame; you'll get enough hours of screentime presence to fill entire weeks. You and your actions. You become a hero by becoming a monster. Look, you made the President cry! Awesome! Can Joe RandomCitizen make the President cry? No, he can't, he's just a loser. This feeds into what Dr Park Dietz says in that Charlie Brooker video.

TL;DR version: In the USA, you combine three elements into a mass-murdering stew:
  • Killers are mythical figures
  • Guns are totally awesome
  • Lives have no intrinsic value

Old Post 12-16-12 11:24 #
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I watched Shoot 'Em Up last night, which had a few relevant observations:
1) Guns mean that anybody can be powerful. You want something that you don't have? A gun can probably empower you to get it. Somebody bigger than you, pushing you around? A gun will tip things in your favour. Worst case, it levels the field if you both have one and can both potentially kill the other with the pull of a trigger.
2) One of the worst things is a pussy with a gun. They hide behind it and compensate for their own weaknesses. It makes them a lot more dangerous because they'll be reactionary, defensive and less predictable. I frequently read and hear that scared people with guns is invariably a bad thing and pretty much definitely will result in a mess.
3) Guns don't kill people, but they make it a hell of a lot easier to do so.


So yeah, chuck in the way the Western media always squeezes these stories for all they're worth and one nutter with a gun, lashing out against the world at large in a highly visible manner with a fully automatic rifle is pretty much writing his own myth. I'm almost surprised it's not some sort of pandemic, the number of disgruntled, angry "little people" there are in the world who can get hold of a gun.

Old Post 12-16-12 11:51 #
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printz
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Phobus said:

So yeah, chuck in the way the Western media always squeezes these stories for all they're worth and one nutter with a gun, lashing out against the world at large in a highly visible manner with a fully automatic rifle is pretty much writing his own myth. I'm almost surprised it's not some sort of pandemic, the number of disgruntled, angry "little people" there are in the world who can get hold of a gun.

As a potential wimp, I honestly don't know of any easy way to obtain a lethal gun. Maybe a Google search and talk among friends would help me, but the wimpiness as well as the negative reaction from my peers would keep me from going through with it. After all, it would be a high liability to keep the object hidden from everyone, even from me. Too risky.

If weapons become a right, I'll probably buy one just to have it (if everyone else starts having one), but I'll be very afraid of having it loaded. I'll probably keep the pistol in a room and the bullets hidden in the other part of the house, just so it becomes difficult for me to use it on an impulse. I'll probably hide them all beneath the floor, I really don't like the idea of everyone being armed...

Are the places that DeathEvokation and Maes live in so bad, that it's a good idea to be armed to defend yourselves? I understand there's crisis and unemployment, but is it that bad?

I already have a bow and arrow though (but not bought by me), but I'm not using it either, in fear of hitting a fellow or a cat by accident during target practice.

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Old Post 12-16-12 12:22 #
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dew
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printz said:
I already have a bow and arrow though (but not bought by me), but I'm not using it either, in fear of hitting a fellow or a cat by accident during target practice.

thanks, my keyboard looks much better with spilled coffee stains on it!

Old Post 12-16-12 12:34 #
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Maes
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printz said:
Are the places that DeathEvokation and Maes live in so bad, that it's a good idea to be armed to defend yourselves?


As they say "rattlesnakes are harmless unless they bite". It's definitively possible to live an entire lifetime in both places without suffering even as much as a bleeding nose or a black eye just through dumb luck, but the chances of being a victim of an armed burglary or robbery have increased by three and four-digit percentages since the beginning of the crisis. Of course, they were small percentages to begin with, but where do you place the bar for acknowledging that there's a problem? 1/1000000? 1/50000? 1/1000? 1/100? (well... if 1/100 of daily activities was a violent crime, that would be a really bad situation. Even during wartime most activities involve doing something else than pulling a trigger on someone).

Even in shitholes like Brazil's favelas you could say that violent crime is a negligible percentage of the total of daily activities (including non-violent crime), but if you compare it to e.g. Luxembourgh's or Switzerland it will appear thousands of times larger.

In any case, tables such as this:

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

help getting some insight. Greece has deteriorated to the level of Russia, Iran and the Philippines as far as crime & safety is concerned. It's ironical that countries like Romania and Albania, have a very low domestic crime rate, while it's a sad statistical fact that many of the alien criminals are indeed, citizens of those countries. This merely means that they managed to export their criminality elsewhere, not that they suddenly became Switzerlands.

Last edited by Maes on 12-16-12 at 12:57

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