Favorite Source Port? (Multiple Choice Poll)

[Graf Zahl]

6 hours ago, segfault said:

 

My problem here is that the simple fact a launcher is necessary beyond "boot up the IWAD" is, in fact, a UX failure. I think having multiple different frontends (just like how we have an entire ecosystem of Doom source ports) is great, but it doesn't really solve the problem I have when I want to play Doom with friends who normally don't play Doom, don't know what IWADs are, and don't want to spend hours troubleshooting and figuring out what is, to them, arcane nonsense in order to play a video game.

 

The problem hasn't been solved because the solution on hand is, essentially, "git gud." We shouldn't be gatekeeping people's access to one of the most important video games and modding communities of all time like this. Hell, Odamex's team is working on this exact thing:

 

 

Maybe it's barebones and a little clumsy, but it's functional, and I'm certain it can be improved over time.

 

You can drag this discussion out endlessly, but the sad truth here is that developing a GUI frontend not only requires work to get done and maintained but is also obstructed by the sad state of cross-platform GUI development. Integrating this into the engines directly is simply not going to work (i.e separation of concerns.) so the only solution would be to bundle a launcher with it.

And now we're right at the start. The far easier approach to solve this would be better promotion of launcher tools.

 

That's also be the recommended way to go for games made with GZDoom. If some game developer wants to support for it they are free to do, those who just want to start directly into the game can just omit it.

 

TBH, I see it as far more productive to just add ZDL to the distribution and rename the executables than to reinvent the wheel and integrate it into the engine. You'd also get a lot of resistance from the old users when changing such things as it tends to interfere seriously with their workflow.

 

 

 

[RHhe82]

… besides, I think blaming source port developers of ’gatekeeping’ is a bit unfair. Any less technically inclined person can download the Unity port and play Doom with a curated selection of custom wads. I think that’s how far ease-of-use can go anyways, because source ports (which are essentially third party hacks in a sense) cannot provide the IWADs (except for the free ones, if they count) and thus at least some bit of file handling is required in any case, and if the user can handle that, installing and configuring a launcher is not an issue.

[Foxstiel]

GZDoom, and woof! i sometimes use that for vanilla play

[Rymante]

For a long time, GZDoom was the only port I used.  I liked how smooth the mouselook felt as well as all the options & mods that let me customize the experience to my liking.

 

However, as I started playing more ambitious limit-removing, Boom & MBF maps with lots of sector & linedef based detailing, GZDoom's performance left me wanting (it was also at this point I discovered that some of the mods I was using tanked performance way more than I expected).  I also got more curious about accuracy to the original engine, so I started experimenting with other ports.

 

Of the other ports I've tried, I like DSDA-Doom, Woof, Crispy Doom & the Eternity Engine the most.  Of those I use DSDA-Doom the most (before it took off I used PrBoom Plus) because I like how fast it's OpenGL renderer runs, I can play at my native display resolution, it supports vanilla, Boom, MBF & MBF21 maps & it supports widescreen assets & UMAPINFO.

Woof is a VERY close second since it also supports all of those things except it's limited to a software renderer with double resolution, I play it if I'm randomly in the mood for that old school crunchy look.  Woof is also one of the only ports I was able to compile from source & run on a Raspberry Pi 4, it runs pretty well on it.

 

I almost forgot multiplayer, I've hosted a few sessions for my friends on Zandronum & it works pretty well for us.  I would like to try Odamex & it's horde mode with them at some point, it seems fun!

[FistMarine]

While I don't have a favorite port, I would say the source ports I use the most (in alphabetical order) are: Chocolate Doom, Crispy Doom, Eternity, GZDoom, PrBoom+, Skulltag, Zandronum and ZDoom. I generally use the latest version for each port, except in rare cases where a wad doesn't work correctly in current/latest version (this mostly applies to ZDoom and GZDoom). As for DOSBox (using it for the IWADs and old 90s wads), I use the latest 0.74-3, as well as DOSBox-X for certain games that didn't work fine in vanilla DOSBox.

Edited December 27, 2022 by FistMarine : Made the post much shorter, as it was too long.

[retrogamer97]

gzdoom hands down

[Redneckerz]

• KBDoom
• Fusion
• Legacy2
• Thrust

[GooberMan]

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

You can drag this discussion out endlessly, but the sad truth here is that developing a GUI frontend not only requires work to get done and maintained but is also obstructed by the sad state of cross-platform GUI development. Integrating this into the engines directly is simply not going to work (i.e separation of concerns.) so the only solution would be to bundle a launcher with it.

 

Number one: There's cross-platform GPL-compatible UI libraries that have been around for 30 years, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WxWidgets

 

And number two: Expect to see a frontend in Rum and Raisin Doom in the future using ImGui - another cross-platform UI framework that proves your complaint wrong once again.

These threads would be so much shorter and not endless if you stopped continually trying to gatekeep everything.

[3t0]

11 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Even maintaining that simple startup dialog in GZDoom is a major crapshoot because there's no decent cross-platform GUI library that can just be dropped in. It's actually 4 distinct pieces of code - different for each platform, that have to be maintained.

Just curious: SDL has grown some minimal Yes/No dialog support in SDL2, wouldn't it be possible to make it first  spawn secondary window, reuse internal SDL2 font and colors used in the dialog somehow and draw a simple selector @segfault wants, imgui style? You could throw out all that wxwidgets, winapi and I don't know what else crap you must be forced to use, and would have one single codebase for all oses, also making launcher-is-failure kids happy? Or is not SDL a hard dependency by now?

 

FTEQuake uses something in-engine like that to offer mod download selector, I think Legacy does something similar too (at least to input iwad path).

 

12 hours ago, segfault said:

The simple fact that Doom frontends like ZDL, Doom Launcher, etc. are necessary at all is IMO a massive UX failure across the board for Doom source ports. Some have basic WAD selectors in a splash screen and I know Odamex is working on a built-in one that behaves like ZDL kinda, but having it all in-game would be ideal.

My sweet summer child, world is much bigger than you think (or can even imagine, it seems) especially these days, when windows is basically a dead platform. There are so many OSes, that you might not even fathom, and many doom ports work there or are even developed there fulltime, Windows build being there just to pander for "Windowsians".

[Andromeda]

2 minutes ago, 3t0 said:

windows is basically a dead platform

lol

[Edward850]

15 minutes ago, 3t0 said:

My sweet summer child, world is much bigger than you think (or can even imagine, it seems) especially these days, when windows is basically a dead platform. There are so many OSes, that you might not even fathom, and many doom ports work there or are even developed there fulltime, Windows build being there just to pander for "Windowsians".

Windows makes up an estimated 96% of the PC gaming landscape alone. And yes I can very safely say that Steam is reflective of the rest of the market. GOGs sales numbers aren't that big and still favours windows anyway, and Xbox on PC (notably gamepass, which is huge on it's own) doesn't exist on any other OS.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Edward850

[3t0]

20 minutes ago, GooberMan said:

 

Number one: There's cross-platform GPL-compatible UI libraries that have been around for 30 years, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WxWidgets

 

And number two: Expect to see a frontend in Rum and Raisin Doom in the future using ImGui - another cross-platform UI framework that proves your complaint wrong once again.

These threads would be so much shorter and not endless if you stopped continually trying to gatekeep everything.

If you ever dealt with wxWidgets full stack, you would know that sadly, like most other FOSS GUIs, they are steaming pile of shit. Don't get me wrong, I have mad respect for wxWidgets maintainers and dev, it takes dedication to work on something like that, I even wrote some silly things with them too, but they are shit.

[GooberMan]

20 minutes ago, 3t0 said:

If you ever dealt with wxWidgets full stack

I've done way more than that. I wrote a C header parser specifically using wxWidgets as a testbed so that I could automate bindings to other languages.

 

(Protip: Never write your own C header parser, even if the reasons seem sound).

 

But hey, I'm sure support is terrible on TempleOS or whatever it is you use, so you have a point there. Probably.

[BigBoy91]

1 hour ago, 3t0 said:

My sweet summer child

Soy overload.

[ChopBlock223]

12 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

But - what launcher?

I'd suggest Doom Launcher, being flexible and easy to learn and use, but there may be other options which could be better.

 

12 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

IMO the actual failing is that the launchers do not get sufficient promotion.

Bundling, or mirroring it on the same page as a highly recommended download, would be two good ways to do that.

Possibly one download without a launcher, and then a separate which has it bundled.

[ChopBlock223]

3 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

The far easier approach to solve this would be better promotion of launcher tools.

Again, bundling would be one such approach.

 

Quote

TBH, I see it as far more productive to just add ZDL to the distribution and rename the executables than to reinvent the wheel and integrate it into the engine. You'd also get a lot of resistance from the old users when changing such things as it tends to interfere seriously with their workflow.

Hence why I suggested two separate packages, one with an included launcher (listed as 'recommended'), and one without for those who prefer doing it their own way. Optionally just do it like this crude mockup I made.

Just to clarify, I think it would be very well worth every sourceport to promote the use of a launcher, not just GzDoom.

[Somniac]

My daily drivers these days are Crispy and PrBoom+, however I've been trying out DSDA more recently and I quite like it. I also use Chocolate quite a bit if I want a really old school feel.

[3t0]

1 hour ago, GooberMan said:

(Protip: Never write your own C header parser, even if the reasons seem sound).

You seem to like self torture. Not that I mind this kink of yours ;).

 

1 hour ago, GooberMan said:

But hey, I'm sure support is terrible on TempleOS or whatever it is you use, so you have a point there. Probably. 

My distro is pretty current, not lagging much behind Arch I believe, so I often could use most features and things usually compiled against the current system wx version. The issue is elsewhere: when the things didn't mesh, and the wx libs did not match, building working specific wxWidgets for static compilation (so that you don't upset system libraries) to merge with given software, used to be quite an endeavor. Maybe their build system changed for the better since then, but I doubt it. I liked the look though, it was most consistent looking GUI on all platforms, just building it was often the hassle. Then there are these weird bugs they sometimes have. Bending Qt was always much more friendlier experience. It's all sunshine and rainbows when stuff works, but I tend to evaluate things depending on how they break, and wx could (and probably still can) break spectacularly.

 

59 minutes ago, BigBoy91 said:

Soy overload.

I like that you like that, unfortunately some of us prefer to kill (or buy killed) animals to eat, so kinda slightly off target.

 

I prefer "gatekeeping" property of doom ports: those who want always find a way, those who don't want will always find shitty excuses.

 

Most people don't do M:N combinations of mods, they have very specific combinations they tend to play. IMHO it is much faster to have few scripts of batch, powershell, bash or sh and launch your favorite wad combo directly and repeatedly anytime, then click through clunky embedded launcher every time to get the combo you want, EDuke32 launch dialog I am looking at you. I guess advanced launchers have presets, but then that is even more valid argument for fully featured standalone launchers. As already said, ports coders have limited bandwidth, you want them to either fix and extend the port or work on the launcher GUI. ZDoom and some other derivative ports, already have autoloaders built into the config file, learn to use them.

 

Finally, if you really want to see embedded launcher in your lifetime, submit the patches and let the best ones win. Once it becomes "trendy" among ports, who knows, maybe some others will catch on?

 

But regarding gatekeeping, many of us got into the whole thing (programmers, artists, designers, admins) because of Doom by messing with Doom. Remember you are growing next generation of your own sourceport engine coders. Why not gate keep? Gatekeeping is great!

 

Finally, inf fact, there is no such thing as gatekeeping by engine coders - only technological ignorance. That is not a problem, you don't want ignorant people near the code and if you do, they can always fork and do "normie" friendly port. Where is the problem?

 

[Zaratul]

DSDA Doom is my way to go! After years of using GZdoom i started to becoming a Doom purist. DSDA with software mode is great stuff!

Sadly no blockmap fix but this is because of demo compatibility so its all good.

[ReaperAA]

4 hours ago, FistMarine said:

7) Haven't used DSDA-Doom too much but I guess I will mostly use it for MBF21 compatible wads when I get to finally play them.

12) PrBoom+ (2.5.1.4) for nearly every vanilla/limit-removing/boom/mbf wad released since the early 2000s until late 2020, then for 2021-present wads, I use the UMAPINFO fork.

 

In this case, I would definitely recommend to give DSDA-Doom another go. It has the UMAPINFO support and other feature present in that fork, plus a whole lot more. At this point, DSDA is the defacto continuation of both PrBoom+ and umap fork.

[Vermil]

5 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

 

Doomsday has had a custom made in engine, and hence cross platform, gui for game and mod loading for years. 

 

https://manual.dengine.net/guide/game_library

[DeathWolf1982]

Zdoom, Gzdoom, and more.

[Mystic 256]

I mostly use DSDA and Woof for Vanilla and Boom wads and GZDoom for most Z/GZ-Based wads and mods

[Graf Zahl]

6 hours ago, GooberMan said:

 

Number one: There's cross-platform GPL-compatible UI libraries that have been around for 30 years, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WxWidgets

 

You are forgetting a few things here: These frameworks take over control over your entire application, which is an absolute no-go.

Second, getting these things compiled as part of your app setup is a major pain in the ass. WxWidgets in particular is bad enough that it's virtually impossible to expect others to compile your source afterward. Been there, done that with countless projects at work. It's borderline acceptable if the GUI is the foundation of your app, but absolutely not if it's just a small added part for which you don't want to saddle yourself with all this baggage. The trouble you inherit is simply not worth the profit.

 

In short: There's an unbridgable gap here between something that's technically doable and what's economically feasible.

 

The one that got closest to be chosen was FLTK, until we found out that it apparently cannot be compiled to work for both X11 and Wayland with the same binary on Linux at which point the opposition from the Linux crowd grew so strong that it was shelved as well.

 

So please tell me again: Where can I find a lightweight, non-intrusive, mostly native looking GUI framework that can be embedded into a larger project without messing it up or complicating the build setup to unacceptable proportions and not having some inane crippling limitations on some platforms?

 

 

6 hours ago, GooberMan said:

And number two: Expect to see a frontend in Rum and Raisin Doom in the future using ImGui - another cross-platform UI framework that proves your complaint wrong once again.

 

 

Good luck with that. I never had much luck getting something presentable out of that thing and it's not for lack of trying.

 

 

6 hours ago, 3t0 said:

Just curious: SDL has grown some minimal Yes/No dialog support in SDL2, wouldn't it be possible to make it first  spawn secondary window, reuse internal SDL2 font and colors used in the dialog somehow and draw a simple selector @segfault wants, imgui style? You could throw out all that wxwidgets, winapi and I don't know what else crap you must be forced to use, and would have one single codebase for all oses, also making launcher-is-failure kids happy? Or is not SDL a hard dependency by now?

 

 

The simple reason why this is not an option is that GZDoom does not use SDL on either Windows and macOS. Both platforms are served by native backends.

 

 

[dasho]

9 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

The one that got closest to be chosen was FLTK, until we found out that it apparently cannot be compiled to work for both X11 and Wayland with the same binary on Linux at which point the opposition from the Linux crowd grew so strong that it was shelved as well.

 

Very recent commits to FLTK 1.4 such as this imply that they are on the cusp of simultaneous X11/Wayland functionality. That being said, I understand not wanting to use the dev/non-stable version of a toolkit.

[Jizzwardo]

21 hours ago, Goody said:

PrBoom+ mostly. I did try DSDA Doom to see what the big deal was but from where I'm at, it's a lateral move. That rewind feature is interesting, I suppose, but it certainly didn't behave how I expected and I'd rather used fixed save points before an encounter and reload from there. It's got some neat things going on and some pretty broad support, so it's definitely sticking around my Doomstuff folder.



 

Out of curiosity, what does DSDA take away that makes you prefer PrBoom+ over it? Far as I can tell DSDA is literally identical, except it has more features. You say you'd rather use fixed save points, but you can, rewind is just an extra option you have. And from that, what does PrBoom+ have that DSDA does not have?

[Goody]

4 minutes ago, Jizzwardo said:

Out of curiosity, what does DSDA take away that makes you prefer PrBoom+ over it? Far as I can tell DSDA is literally identical, except it has more features. You say you'd rather use fixed save points, but you can, rewind is just an extra option you have. And from that, what does PrBoom+ have that DSDA does not have?

There isn’t a preference. I just don’t have a burning desire to spend the 2 minutes changing my settings and point my launcher at it. Just think of all the things I could accomplish in that time!

[MoreMending]

DSDA because of that little kills/items/secrets (and time) counter you can put above the normal hud, and because I'm a decino fanboy.

[indigotyrian]

10 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

You can drag this discussion out endlessly, but the sad truth here is that developing a GUI frontend not only requires work to get done and maintained but is also obstructed by the sad state of cross-platform GUI development. Integrating this into the engines directly is simply not going to work (i.e separation of concerns.) so the only solution would be to bundle a launcher with it.

And now we're right at the start. The far easier approach to solve this would be better promotion of launcher tools.

 

That's also be the recommended way to go for games made with GZDoom. If some game developer wants to support for it they are free to do, those who just want to start directly into the game can just omit it.

 

TBH, I see it as far more productive to just add ZDL to the distribution and rename the executables than to reinvent the wheel and integrate it into the engine. You'd also get a lot of resistance from the old users when changing such things as it tends to interfere seriously with their workflow.

 

Telling people to just download a launcher means people have to figure out how to hook the launcher up, how to get WADs loaded into the launcher, how to use the launcher in the first place... Not to put too fine a point on it, but the opposition to a built-in PWAD launcher and browser (which Odamex proves isn't really all that difficult to add onto what many doom source ports already have with the dialog window that pops up asking what IWAD to launch... I mean shit, GZDoom already has that!) just sounds like "well yeah, but that's effort, lets pawn that off onto other developers and the end-user."

 

And I totally get that writing UI code is a tedious, mostly thankless task! And that given the multitude of different platforms out there, it's really not simple at all. It still doesn't change the fact that getting into Doom modding is way more tedious and obtuse than it needs to be if you're not already knee-deep in PC game modding, and maybe the technical barrier to entry can be lowered a bit so more people can enjoy all the cool shit that's been and is being made. That's my point.

 

Why do I need to give my friends a crash course in managing files and folders, teach them how to set up and use several different source ports and launchers, and string everything together just so we can do co-op BTSX or Scythe 2?

 

8 hours ago, 3t0 said:

My sweet summer child, world is much bigger than you think (or can even imagine, it seems) especially these days, when windows is basically a dead platform. There are so many OSes, that you might not even fathom, and many doom ports work there or are even developed there fulltime, Windows build being there just to pander for "Windowsians".

 

I'm going to ignore the factually incorrect claim that Windows is a "dead platform" as well as the incredibly condescending tone you're taking with me for daring to assert that maybe playing Doom WADs can be easier for other people who don't know a whole lot about computers to address something else: At no point have I ever mentioned any specific operating system. This is a problem whether the end user is running Windows, MacOS, or any flavor of Linux out there.

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Good luck with that. I never had much luck getting something presentable out of that thing and it's not for lack of trying.

Fun fact, all of the Quake remaster's menus and the scoreboard are built out of imgui. Pretty much your imagination is the limit with that.