Unpopular Doom Opinions

[Nefelibeta]

On 9/4/2022 at 11:04 PM, Lucius Wooding said:

I'm trying to see your points of view here but I still don't agree with gatekeeping the UV version of a wad. Maybe if I had thousands of people downloading anything I made (and deservedly so) I could be picky about how they choose to play. 

To be fair people should really play Magnolia on both HMP and UV to judge whether is a good idea or not. Map03 on UV will completely abosulutely destroy any average player who doesn't have any prior knowledge, and savescumming cannot help you.

[Lucius Wooding]

In the case of Magnolia, I totally agree it's ridiculous to beat on UV. I can even agree with the sentiment that people should consider playing stuff like Stardates on HMP, having played those a bit. I just feel that having to post a demo and publicly request the UV version of the map raises an unnecessary social barrier. 

[Tarnsman]

I fully understand why Ribbiks chose to put that barrier in place. The ardant refusal by many people do take advantage of the choices given to them by a creator can be extremely frustrating.

 

When you design UV to be a difficulty that's very blind unfriendly you can hope that people realize that and lower the skill level, but unfortunately many people do not. When you put a lot of effort into balancing lower skills so that they can still be enjoyable and intend people to play on them, then constantly get feedback that's basically people complaining about the choices they made, that can lead to you wanting to remove that choice from the player. Since UV was intended to be fore people who played HMP and wanted to play it again, the way he implemented it makes sense.

[Deadwing]

At least for secrets, you can also mix marked secrets with unmarked ones and get more creative with some cryptic hidden stuff. Same for some type of enemies (which I believe Ribbiks has done that?)

 

But It would indeed definitely be interesting as a mapper to experiment without the restrictions of full backtrack for completion of items/monsters/secrets. Story-wise you are allowed to do more crazy stuff (ofc not talking about cutscenes)

[Maribo]

1 minute ago, Deadwing said:

At least for secrets, you can also mix marked secrets with unmarked ones and get more creative with some cryptic hidden stuff. Same for some type of enemies (which I believe Ribbiks has done that?)

 

Just posting two Ribbiks examples for these in case anyone is curious:

Spoiler

Sunlust Map14 has an unmarked secret with a pair of megaspheres and scrolling lyrics from Careless Whisper

Magnolia's Barons do not count towards the total kill%

 

[Grain of Salt]

5 minutes ago, Maribo said:

two Ribbiks examples

 

I also really like Danne's

Spoiler

SECRET WALRUS

 

[Shanoa]

This conversation regarding UV definitely has me reconsider how I approach mapsets. I tend to be dead set on playing UV but also I'll never criticize mappers if UV's too difficult, I just chalk it off as me not being skilled enough but that also mean I may or may not skip a mapset because "it's UV or bust", it's a mentality I need to rethink. From playing with other ports beside the Z family, to trying to improve pistol start I should also read those README files more carefully, if HMP is the intended experience then sure! Better that than skipping mapsets. So, thanks for that folks!

 

For secrets well, it's fine if I can't find them all, I'd love to but some are reaaaally difficult to find, that or i'm just bad at finding them. If anything it just makes me wish the computer map was a more often used item. Makes me wonder if the computer map could be made to also show monsters/secrets count when picked up, especially if that information is made hidden at the start of a map.

[jazzmaster9]

When UV-or nothing people complain that hard more is Hard and ignoring the Textfile to try HMP First, having UV be a special Edition type deal is what they're pretty much going to get. A Mapper can only take so much before they put matters in their own hand, which is why Abysm 1 and 2 doesnt have a hard more, specifically because people will ignore the intended Normal mode.

[Kwahn]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:19 AM, skillsaw said:

Really fucking good doom words

I agree with your entire post - and I'm designing maps to compromise a little on this.

 

If there's a point of no return, I plan on putting the K: and S: total you're supposed to have by that point in the map on top of the door.  It's still No Return, but the player will be warned.  People who obsess over making numbers go up and keep doing it without fear of missing out, while everyone else can play through and have the intended No Return experiences.

And to quell the people who mindlessly play everything on UV, I'm renaming HMP to "Ultra-Violence" and re-naming UV to "Doom Gods Only" and renaming NM, "zeromaster's mom".  I think just a simple re-titling will fix a lot of people's headspace around difficulty selections.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Kwahn

[baja blast rd.]

A bunch of different thoughts on the theme of playstyle, since that is being discussed lately:

 

 

 

It's okay for maps to be designed such that getting 100% kills, or even like 70%, is unreasonable without foreknowledge and you just have to run past stuff and the "encounters" are tested and balanced that way, meaning you're supposed to play with evasion. Usually when that is kludgy, it's because it's happening due to author oversight, like the player overlooked a non-obvious weapon and now has no ammo to kill stuff they are truly meant to (and the map isn't rescued by a happy accident of that turning out to be fun anyway, as sometimes happens). But if this is designed with intentionality, it can be reliably fun!

 

People often see deciding to run past stuff as something one does when they are bored or impatient or combat is overly grindy or they are out of ammo or something, but playing semi-pacifist from the very outset can be a very fun intentional playstyle, particularly in maps that don't have easy UV-Speed approaches. It can be really tricky to beat a map safely while getting <80% kills in some maps, and it can be exhilarating to try stuff like that. 

 

*

 

Tying the worth and quality judgment of something to one extremely particular playstyle is bad. Not everyone, for example, does blind saveless 100% K/S playthroughs for a YT audience. :^) 

 

D2ISO m15 is a good map and any YT-commenter who thinks it's bad just because it's not suited to that playstyle is being dumb. (It's not necessarily dumb to think it sucks for other reasons.) :P

 

* 

 

100K/100S is just one mode of (attempted) completionism. Others exist.

 

Personally I don't feel I had a truly "complete" experience unless I played a map 2-3 times at least and noted down a lot about the experience, noticing a lot of non-obvious aspects of the map in the process, and digging in deeper to the more surface-level ones. That would be something resembling DWMC participation. 

 

A 100K/100S first playthrough where I play without any particular observational focus is way less "complete" to me than a near-not-quite-max first playthrough where I might miss some Content(TM) but I'm way more attentive -- and way less complete by a pretty huge margin. 

 

Noticing 2 or 3 more little details, reflecting critically on 1 or 2 more designs or encounters, thinking a bit more about the map concept or story -- or anything like that -- counts for way more to me than killing a few more imps or grabbing that one last cubby secret or whatever. 

 

Obviously you can do both, but tying "completionism" to just kills and secrets runs the risk of Goodharting oneself with a Metric instead of having what you'd really consider a richer experience.

 

*

 

Sometimes 100K/100S can subtract from the experience, meaning that it's less complete! That for example can be when a map is better understood as having multiple overlapping, but sort of distinct 75K/75S-or-whatever experiences and getting the "full experience" involves playing it twice, whereas 100K/100S completionism is just some weird chimera that doesn't make as much sense -- or an alternate "extra loop" sort of deal. (It's fine to design maps that way! I'd like more maps to do that.)

 

*

 

I usually play a map once, and sometimes twice or three times, because it can take impractical time and effort to play every map the number of times required to asymptotically reach a Full Experience (20+ times). (I also consider myself a non-completionist. Yes even when I get 100% kills and secrets, because there's nothing necessarily "complete" about that.) 

 

*

 

A map is like a canvas for the player to have fun. Sometimes it doesn't mesh with some playstyles. "Killing everything and finding all secrets" is just one playstyle -- the normative one these days, but just one out of many. In one sense, persisting in a playstyle that isn't working is sort of like going to a partner dance activity where everyone is doing Salsa and then doing that EDM fistpump, hip thrust dance at everyone. But in another sense, there is still value in seeing how maps play with "unfitting" playstyles.

 

It's not exactly clear what. Personally I think it's not a bad thing that some people stick with 100K/100S as much as it is that the community seems to have decided that that style is "correct," or an ideal, and that others are anomalous or niche and altogether rare.  

 

*

 

You can't rightfully say you got the Full Experience in a map unless you named every imp. 

[Decay]

45 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

People often see deciding to run past stuff as something one does when they are bored or impatient or combat is overly grindy or they are out of ammo or something, but playing semi-pacifist from the very outset can be a very fun intentional playstyle, particularly in maps that don't have easy UV-Speed approaches. It can be really tricky to beat a map safely while getting <80% kills in some maps, and it can be exhilarating to try stuff like that.

This is my preferred approach at all times. People often forget Doom's strength came in flexibility, where people can pick their battles and ignore things to get to the exit.

[Shepardus]

52 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

You can't rightfully say you got the Full Experience in a map unless you named every imp. 

One of the first things I thought of when DSDHacked was announced was to make every enemy a unique monster with its own name, personality, and backstory.

[Ozcar]

3d model look out of place of doom, since doom engine isnt "3d", i think it fit better in quake.

[Edward850]

18 minutes ago, Ozcar said:

since doom engine isnt "3d"

Yes it is.

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, Ozcar said:

3d model look out of place of doom, since doom engine isnt "3d", i think it fit better in quake.

 

This is hardly an unpopular opinion. I dare say the vast majority of Doom fans would agree with you that models look out of place. However @Edward850 is correct. Doom is a 3D engine. There are limitations like no room over room, no checks for things passing under or over things, but it is 3D. The geometry is mapped out in 3D and things are tracked on all three axis. Compare this to Wolfenstein 3D which has no concept of a Z axis at all. 3D models do not fit, simply because they are too different to what everyone is used to and their finer detail clashes with the other graphics like textures. This creates an off-putting stylistic dissonance.

[Ozcar]

Nvm,i think doom is 3d engine, it just its limited compared to quake, but still 3d. Btw this make doom a first 3d fps? or no?

[Edward850]

Not by a long shot, though Doom is considered the fastest performing of its time. Plenty of 3D games before it but usually were compromised in some way (vector or untextured graphics, passive/low framerate, etc). Doom's claim to fame was basically a having all of it at once, being fast, textured, full VGA colour and with dynamic light mapping.

[Sonikkumania]

36 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Not by a long shot, though Doom is considered the fastest performing of its time. Plenty of 3D games before it but usually were compromised in some way (vector or untextured graphics, passive/low framerate, etc). Doom's claim to fame was basically a having all of it at once, being fast, textured, full VGA colour and with dynamic light mapping.

And it had such an unique character, level and audio design. Blake Stone had that too but it's flaw is the fact that it's just too dated which is a shame.

[Ozcar]

So descent is first true 3d fps to have every 3d model.

[Devalaous]

12 hours ago, Shepardus said:

One of the first things I thought of when DSDHacked was announced was to make every enemy a unique monster with its own name, personality, and backstory.

 

A related tangent, this is one of the reasons I *LOVE* Soundblock's Master Levels and the freebie related works; what comes across as a rando cyberdemon or archvile or revenant, is actually a named character via the text file. The cyberdemon on top of the Black Tower is the Cabalguy's old friend and ally, and knowing that turns that whole map from a 'random Doom 2 map about climbing an evil tower' into a visceral vengeance mission, where your now callously massacring your old friend's minions and destroying his home, then murdering him out of sheer spite, then escaping his angry remaining minions as you get out of there. Bloodsea Keep's archvile throne is similarly a named entity and the lord of that keep, and his death weakens the Cabal. Mephisto's Mausoleum has you raising Mephisto's corpse and breaking it further, then destroying his unliving spirit as a final 'fuck you'

 

The Cabal series is one I always wished was finished, or handed to a dedicated community project watched over by Soundblock, because the whole thing *feels* so guttural and vengeful compared to other works, since your not some UAC Marine saving the world from Yet Another Invasion, your an evil bastard with only the death and destruction of all you used to rule over fueling you across the campaign.

[StodgyAyatollah]

1 hour ago, Ozcar said:

So descent is first true 3d fps to have every 3d model.

If you consider it a FPS I think it may be. Magic Carpet released a year earlier but didn't use 3d models. Terminator: Futureshcok may be the first traditional fps that also used 3d models, which came out a few months after Descent.

[Gez]

18 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

The Cabal series is one I always wished was finished, or handed to a dedicated community project watched over by Soundblock, because the whole thing *feels* so guttural and vengeful compared to other works, since your not some UAC Marine saving the world from Yet Another Invasion, your an evil bastard with only the death and destruction of all you used to rule over fueling you across the campaign.

Blood, adapted to Doom's setting.

[Stupid Bunny]

My favorite secrets are the ones I don’t find. Even better if they’re big, sprawling secret areas, maybe hinted at from outside, that have monsters and lots of loot and a whole bunch of gameplay in their own right. I didn’t realize so many people feel like they should be able to 100% the secrets on the first try, but frankly I love that I’ve played even original Doom for years and still not found everything. I even love the stupid troll secrets that are only discoverable by dumb luck and have like two ammo clips in them. I love a WAD that is full of secrets and tricks and easter eggs and surprises and optional areas, that can call me back to play it again and again and still not be sure that I’ve discovered everything it has to hide. I guess it would be excessive to compare the obsession with blind UV-maxing to the ephemeral one-and-done throwaway culture but I do think there’s value as both a player and mapper in an experience that can be revisited endlessly and always have something new.

 

[Arrowhead]

This is likely to be quite an unpopular opinion, might even get  a little bit of flak, but here goes...

 

The original DWANGO-5, MAP01 isn't a very good deathmatch map in 2022, IMO - yet people act like it's still a masterpiece of sorts. I get that in 1995 pickings were slim, and that this was likely quite a good map for the era, but how is this still touted as a 'good' map in the modern sphere? Admittedly, this positive sentiment isn't nearly as prevalent in 2022, as it was in the late 90s and early 2000s - but I still wanted to touch on this.

 

The map is plagued w/ pistol-starts, the BFG can be grabbed through the midtexture wall in the main room, (Not trying to be rude, but how did the playtesters not notice this? If this is a result of physics changes in the new multiplayer sourceports, then I apologize) the plasma rifle is only available after waiting an eon for a slow elevator to come down, (the plasma is FAR harder to retrieve than the BFG), there is a room that is a complete dead-end - this room only contains a green armor - hardly enough incentive for such a large risk, the entire large northern blue room could be completely removed without any gameplay consequences; there are multiple chokepoints not much bigger than 64 units across, there are also far too many right-angles, and far too many 128 unit wide hallways, (an unfortunate consequence of using a rather cramped SP map as the base) SSGs are scattered around like litter, which makes the map into an overly simplistic combination of SSG-jousting / rushing to the BFG. Why is a chaingun of all things directly in the middle of a tiny hallway? Why is there a second rocket launcher and box of rockets floating in the void, never to be accessible by anyone?

 

The spawns are close to nonsensical - although, I will admit that the authors start you closer to a weapon on average than many other DM maps of this period. But why spawn someone in front of an SSG? You expect me to immediately turn around 180 degrees upon spawning in, or back up? Really? Why? On what planet is that viable DM design? - it's one of the most counter-intuitive things you can do when designing an arena like this.

 

Also, why spawn me just slightly diagonally of an SSG that's in front of me? What is so damn difficult about placing a spawn on a weapon? Why do next to NO DM maps from this era do this properly? The editors available in 1995 certainly allowed items to be placed on top of other items, so why such an obtuse spawn system? You would think you'd make a map, play it w/ a buddy or two, and then realize that starting w/ a pistol is less fun than starting w/ an actually useful weapon - you'd think you'd see these pistol-spawn issues only in the first couple years of DM design - but that's not the case. I've seen maps as late as 2006 (there are likely examples from even later) that start people w/ a pistol - how this issue wasn't ironed out in the first couple months of DM experimentation is beyond me - if anyone has a theory as to why this is the case, I'd like to know. Was hunting down a viable weapon considered 'just part of the DM experience' back then? If there are any D5M1 / early DM veterans out there, please let me know - I only started getting involved in the Doom2 multiplayer scene in 2019.

 

I get that one of the main draws to this map is nostalgia, and the fact that MAP01 of Doom2 was probably most people's first experience w/ deathmatch - this is likely a major contributor as to why the map was so popular, and why it still is fairly popular even today, but it's time to start looking at DWANGO (the WAD series as a whole) without rose-colored glasses on.

 

It might seem a bit over-the-top to so closely scrutinize a deathmatch map this old, but when you consider the huge amount of people who have played it, I believe it's warranted. I wouldn't doubt that this map is the first thing many people think about when they hear the word 'deathmatch'.

 

This post isn't a shot at the original map-makers either, nor is it intended to be inflammatory - this was no doubt a great deathmatch map for '95 - but to say that this is any more than an average deathmatch map in 2022 just seems like a major error to me...
 

Spoiler

D5, M1:

 

:P

[volbound1700]

I just joined and I am behind on the conversations but here are my opinions (not sure if unpopular or not).

 

Doom 2 is my favorite doom with Level 13 (Downtown) being my favorite level.  I love levels 9-20 with the exception of Level 11 due to a bad part where enemies are below you that you cannot shoot and you have to make leap of faith (are aright before end).  Level 11 is not a good level.  I actually prefer Doom 2 music over the Classics with maybe the exception of TNT (it has some awesome tunes as well).

 

Regarding rankings here are my top dooms:

 

1.  Doom 2

2.  Doom TNT

3.  UDoom

4.  Plutonia (levels just came out messy although there are a few GREAT levels even with this one)

 

I also recently got Doom 2 on Switch and played several other Mods that I have loved from others.  I cannot remember their names.

 

My unpopular opinion:  I didn't like Doom 2016.  I have loved every other Doom but it.  I think it was repetitive and had no strategy:  You enter rooms, enemy spawn, fight them all trying to get glory kills to refill health and enemy.  Rinse and repeat.  I loved the monsters and new look but I just don't think it had a lot of atmosphere and the fights lacked the strategy from the original one or the fear/semi-realism of Doom 3.  

 

I haven't tried Doom Eternal but it looks the same.  I may try Doom 2016 again to see if I can like and give it a second chance.  I still consider the classics to be #1.  

 

 

[Lila Feuer]

I have another complaint to make. Computer maps that don't update anything. I realize mappers can flag linedefs to not update or even appear on the automap at all, but if so then why are you giving me a computer map for? I picked one up in NOVA II's MAP15: Crumbling Necropolis hoping it would assist me for having 4/10 secrets after an hour of play aaaaand there's nothing. Okay, I guess I'll rely on walkthrough or video since the computer map was useless.

[Ozcar]

Quake is the true doom sequel Imo.

While doom 64 is true doom 3 (even tho i love doom 3 too).

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ozcar

[Herr Dethnout]

25 minutes ago, Ozcar said:

Quake is the true doom sequel Imo.

While doom 64 is true doom 3 (even tho i love doom 3 too).

 

That's no unpopular at all.

Quake (the first one) is literally Doom with other name lol

[Devalaous]

5 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

I have another complaint to make. Computer maps that don't update anything. I realize mappers can flag linedefs to not update or even appear on the automap at all, but if so then why are you giving me a computer map for? I picked one up in NOVA II's MAP15: Crumbling Necropolis hoping it would assist me for having 4/10 secrets after an hour of play aaaaand there's nothing. Okay, I guess I'll rely on walkthrough or video since the computer map was useless.

 

Jimmy did this a LOT in Deathless, soured me on the whole mapset.

[Pechudin]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:06 PM, baja blast rd. said:

People often see deciding to run past stuff as something one does when they are bored or impatient or combat is overly grindy or they are out of ammo or something, but playing semi-pacifist from the very outset can be a very fun intentional playstyle, particularly in maps that don't have easy UV-Speed approaches. It can be really tricky to beat a map safely while getting <80% kills in some maps, and it can be exhilarating to try stuff like that.

 

I personally love maps where you are intentionally ammo-starved and have to run and evade across a good chunk of the map before picking up a good weapon.