NOVA IV, MBF21 compatible project for beginners (slots filled)

[HiMyNameIsChair]

@obake Oh btw, it's a small thing, but my name is misspelled on the mappers list.

[Cammy]

19 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

I missed my shot for a map slot, but I'd really like to make some music for this. I need some excuse to make more music, it's a lot easier to me to compose with a goal in mind.

 

14 hours ago, AnArchaicApparatus said:

If anyone wants a custom MIDI for a level, feel free to DM me or publicly @ me. I'm always itching to poop a few more out.

 

Good luck to all of ya'll!!! Looks like this is gonna be cooking real wild.

 

Fuck it. NOVA 4 full soundtrack? (And with hopefully a lot more people than just us as composers if we end up getting Light / Dark versions of the wad?)

[Cammy]

Actually, double-posting real quick to mention that the idea of having two separate "versions" of a single wad is not without precedent. See 100 Lines with its split based on gameplay styles, and MAYhem 2018 with its split based on aesthetic theme and dehacked inclusions. The latter of the two strikes me as more palatable in this case.

 

Edit: More palatable with regards to an aesthetic split, I mean. Would be cool for the different wads, if they were to exist, to have different PLAYPALs and episode themes. I, for one, have no issues with leaving dehacked behind. :)

Edited January 11 by Cammy

[Hunting4r2d2]

If we were to do a second version, I'd be more than happy to try and develop some dehacked monsters for it.

[Xaser]

There's no need to split the project into separate wads unless it exceeds 100 maps (and even then, there's some discussion about raising that limit in dsda, etc. anyway), since UMAPINFO is a thing in MBF21 ports.
 

For DEH gameplay tweaks, you typically want to get that stuff together before the project starts. It's possible to add brand new monsters and decorations (i.e. not replace existing stuff, meaning no need for a split wad) with DEHEXTRA/DSDHACKED, though if those come in too late then they won't get used in anyone's maps. :P

 

All that said, definitely strongly consider relaxing the map limit. Not everyone who claimed a slot will end up making a map, and there's a massive amount of interest from folks right now that will be lost if they aren't given the opportunity to start something.

[Cammy]

Last post for now - whipped up a title screen midi before bed, use it if you like it :)

[SSGmaster]

If there's a backup queue I would like to be on it.

[stochastic]

It looks like there's 8-10 mappers that missed out on getting an initial slot and requested to be in the backup queue. Given that it's been over 24 hours since the initial post (which has given more folks time to see it) maybe there could be 1-2 more episodes added and cap it there instead of possibly allowing open submissions? That way the wad wouldn't be too over-bloated while still giving more newcomers an opportunity to contribute.

 

Just an idea, though. I definitely can imagine that managing a 32-map megawad is demanding enough, and all of Xaser's considerations are totally valid, so it's completely up to you of course, @obake. Just wanted to advocate for us folks who just missed the boat :)

Edited January 12 by stochastic

[Super Mighty G]

I joined the Discord as a backup mapper and to provide playtesting. 

[NecrumWarrior]

There's a Discord server? 

 

Also I am down to Playtest stuff when it's ready. 

[AnArchaicApparatus]

9 hours ago, Cammy said:

 

 

Fuck it. NOVA 4 full soundtrack? (And with hopefully a lot more people than just us as composers if we end up getting Light / Dark versions of the wad?)

Let's let the mappers decide if they want hand-crafted midis or if they have some cool midi they wanna use lol, but that would be kinda fun.

 

I'm def open to make stuff based on certain maps/whatever mappers think would work for their maps, but I think it's best for that bit of interplay.

[DoomGappy]

8 minutes ago, AnArchaicApparatus said:

Let's let the mappers decide if they want hand-crafted midis or if they have some cool midi they wanna use lol, but that would be kinda fun.

 

I'm def open to make stuff based on certain maps/whatever mappers think would work for their maps, but I think it's best for that bit of interplay.

I think I have a midi for my map already, but I'll have to check in the context of mapping. 95% sure I won't change it, though. First time I'll make a map with a predetermined midi in mind.

[dobu gabu maru]

Oh heyyyyy well this is a surprise I didn't expect! You should've PM'd me about this, as I had a couple of tips in mind before the thread was organized:

 

- The first is not to slot mappers by map. Authors can choose episode themes to sign up for and whatnot, but with a disparate group like this you do not want to leave it up to individual mappers to fill specific slots—that falls under management's duty (ie you & the playtesters). That way you can avoid having two sloggy maps placed back to back. To that end I would also not put a strict limit on the # of maps in an episode—just let people map for the themes they're interested in, and form the episodes around the amount of contributions you get.

 

- The second thing—and something that's especially important for this project, seeing as folks are flocking to it like ants at a picnic—is that you need to prioritize amateur mappers. NiGHTS is an established mapper with their own Doomwiki page, Andrea already has a map in NOVA 2, MFG38 has made a literal megawad—you should be vetting these people and denying them if they ask to join! NOVA was designed specifically for mappers that are wet behind the ears: folks that may have done some dabbling but have never been a part of a megawad that goes through its own alpha/beta/RC phases. If intermediate mappers want to join they should look for open slots elsewhere; NOVA should be for folks that have released ~5 maps maximum. ^{Although I guess it wouldn't be NOVA without a vet or two photobombing the project out of nowhere.}

 

- The third is that you wanna encourage mappers to also be playtesters. If it was me I would've made it mandatory for any mapper to also provide feedback on like, two additional maps that get submitted to the project. Folks should be encouraged to communicate & collaborate as much as they create, especially in a project like this. When you're new to Doom mapping, good feedback can be as valuable as finding water in a desert.

 

- cannonball made a great point that amateur musicians should be equally encouraged to participate (no solo OSTs this time Cammy!!!) and Xaser stressing that you want to add new dehacked enemies before the project starts is spot-on.

 

I got a couple other reservations but I'm not the one running the project :P I wish all new mappers that sign up the best of luck & to try and enjoy themselves. Don't go into this expecting to make your magnum opus or win accolades—just start with a cool idea or urge to map and see where it goes from there. And to obake—it's a looooong and winding road to the final release, so I hope you're a patient fellow.

[NiGHTS108]

8 minutes ago, dobu gabu maru said:

NiGHTS is an established mapper with their own Doomwiki page

 

Not gonna lie, ironically I'm actually pretty complimented I'd be considered an "established mapper" but either way, all really great points for sure! Especially about the map slot thing, I agree that the maps should just speak for themselves and have that justify where they're placed

[Cammy]

1 hour ago, dobu gabu maru said:

(no solo OSTs this time Cammy!!!)

 

Ha, I wouldn't have the energy for it even if I tried! RoC25's soundtrack took a hell of a long time, and a hell of a lot out of me. Like the wad itself, this would need to be a community endeavor.

 

If enough Nova 4-ers are interested in an original soundtrack being made, then of course my choice would be to involve as many beginner musicians as possible. With the surging number of new people on the scene lately (this wad being made by them) and obake's explicit forbidding of copyrighted music, the weather seems right to shoot for a full original soundtrack to get some new names on the scene. Plus, all three of the previous NOVAs had a small handful of new music each, usually made by mappers already participating in the project, so why not go the distance this time?

[Redead-ITA]

I've been curious myself if i could join a Nova Project seeing my last submission for 3 didn't end up in there, despite having 7 years of doom mapping on my resume.

[Somniac]

I threw my hat in the ring as I want to focus on more community projects this year *shrug* I mean, I have a Doomwiki page, but I'm not sure that in itself is a completely reliable indicator of one's skill level. If I measure it by the amount of maps I've made, then its more than 5, which would seem to put me above the previously established threshold. Thats fair enough. However, considering I think most of what I've done is mediocre at best, and I only started making "decent" maps in the last year, I don't really know what to think at the moment.

[baja blast rd.]

6 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

- The second thing—and something that's especially important for this project, seeing as folks are flocking to it like ants at a picnic—is that you need to prioritize amateur mappers. NiGHTS is an established mapper with their own Doomwiki page, Andrea already has a map in NOVA 2, MFG38 has made a literal megawad—you should be vetting these people and denying them if they ask to join! NOVA was designed specifically for mappers that are wet behind the ears: folks that may have done some dabbling but have never been a part of a megawad that goes through its own alpha/beta/RC phases. If intermediate mappers want to join they should look for open slots elsewhere; NOVA should be for folks that have released ~5 maps maximum. ^{Although I guess it wouldn't be NOVA without a vet or two photobombing the project out of nowhere.}

There are a couple other authors who've each been steadily active since pre-2020 who I don't think most people would consider even "intermediate" (they also have Cacowards features). I'll let them point themselves out but they make really good maps lol. 

 

(I still thought of NiGHTS as a newcomer, despite being pretty active in 2023, but if you want to draw the ~5 maps maximum there are a handful of other authors that are above that and similarly active as NiGHTS.) 

[MFG38]

18 minutes ago, Somniac said:

I mean, I have a Doomwiki page, but I'm not sure that in itself is a completely reliable indicator of one's skill level.

 

It isn't. If anything, having an article of yourself on the wiki is merely a measure of notability, and notability doesn't automatically translate to skill level. There's literally no correlation between the two.

 

20 minutes ago, Somniac said:

If I measure it by the amount of maps I've made, then its more than 5, which would seem to put me above the previously established threshold.

 

That's just dobu's idea of a potential threshold - don't take that suggestion as anything official until it's actually made official. Then again, the whole Nova series was at least partially dobu's idea as far as I recall, so their word does hold some weight even if it's only improvement suggestions.

 

5 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

MFG38 has made a literal megawad

 

Technically several, but I hesitate to call any of those my finest work to any extent. Hell, one of them was my first ever serious wad project and the end result is expectably utter garbage. Anyway, that's a nitpick - I do understand where you're coming from, me having been in the "business" for around 15 years. But what I hope you can understand - and this is the least defensive I can make this sound - is that the learning process within those 15 years has been slow. I look at stuff I released as recently as 2020, 10+ years into this hobby at that point, and I think "sure, it looks pretty, but the layouts and gameplay suck lol". I had a grand idea but the execution fell flat. In a lot of ways, I still consider myself a beginner despite my extensive back catalogue. If you feel that a "career" spanning 15 years and 200+ maps should be grounds for disqualifying me from contributing, that's completely fair, but I didn't sign up for this project to "photobomb" it as you seem to imply.

[akolai]

on the off-chance the bonus episode ends up materialising (and i still count as a beginner somehow), i'd gladly take a slot

[FletcherHonoroma]

@MFG38 Irrespective of their quality - you've a sizeable amount of levels to your name as well a good degree of notability within the community. The point which @dobu gabu maru makes is that the Nova format ought to be a platform for completely beginner mappers to make a name for themselves and be noticed when they otherwise might not have the chance. It is, after all, suggested in the very name of the wad, and although the Nova series indeed has a history of mappers who do no fit that bill appearing, the overall point dobu gobu maru is making is valid.

[NiGHTS108]

If I could contribute anything, in 2024 I don’t think NOVA can really just have 32 maps, mainly because the Doom community at this point is just too big and NOVA’s a pretty god damn big name at this point that too many people would want to be there for NOVA IV to limit it like that.

Edited January 12 by NiGHTS108

[Li'l devil]

Here's a good way of defining who counts as a newcomer: anyone with 2023-2024 registration date (maybe 2022 too). You can throw everyone else out!

 

However, if this project has a specific goal to have otherwise unknown mappers to hit it big, then this gets very complicated. I'm sure there are a plenty of mappers who have been around for quite long that never hit it big, because they just never got lucky to get into a popular community project and/or their standalone maps were never noticed in the sea of other maps.

[FletcherHonoroma]

@NiGHTS108 is quite right. Truthfully, this ought to have been open submission from the beginning, and then whittled down (or not) to the 32 most deserving and suitable candidates. With a cap of 32, people are bound to: drop out, not produce something up to snuff, or be ineligible for the wad. I don't doubt that if any of those things happened there'd be any trouble filling those empty slots, but it could be avoided by simply having an open submission.

Obviously, trimming the submissions into a shapely 32 is a long and thankless task, but with the help of playtesters it's made a little bit easier.

[jmac]

17 minutes ago, Li'l devil said:

Here's a good way of defining who counts as a newcomer: anyone with 2023-2024 registration date (maybe 2022 too). You can throw everyone else out!

Plenty of us have been on the forums for far longer than that, while still being complete newcomers to mapping.

[cannonball]

1 hour ago, NiGHTS108 said:

If I could contribute anything, in 2024 I don’t think NOVA can really just have 32 maps, mainly because the Doom community at this point is just too big and NOVA’s a pretty good damn big name at this point that too many people would want to be there for NOVA IV to limit it like that.

Well given the interest in this wad, I am glad to have someone who has had the experience of compiling a wad of several hundred maps 😄

Well the good news is that hopefully some more ground work will get done over the coming weeks to get a grasp of the scale of this project. I will say right here that the objective from my part will be to try to get people to build and improve as the process goes along, yes I fully expect some rough entries but there isn’t any reason to say that they won’t be there come the final release as long as people are willing to learn and grow over the coming months.

[Novaseer]

32 minutes ago, jmac said:

Plenty of us have been on the forums for far longer than that, while still being complete newcomers to mapping.

And plenty of us haven't even been active forum users in that time.

 

I was active in 2018, occasionally present in 2019, then pretty much disappeared off the face of the earth until the 2023 Cacowards.

[NiGHTS108]

2 hours ago, cannonball said:

Well given the interest in this wad, I am glad to have someone who has had the experience of compiling a wad of several hundred maps 😄

 

On one hand,

, though on the other, I'd honestly be perfectly willing to at least help with compiling! I mean, I've even made a knockoff Megiddo closer map with 20 segments instead of just 5 or 6, so yeah I'd certainly be willing to help out

[Lorenz0]

11 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

- The second thing—and something that's especially important for this project, seeing as folks are flocking to it like ants at a picnic—is that you need to prioritize amateur mappers. NiGHTS is an established mapper with their own Doomwiki page, Andrea already has a map in NOVA 2, MFG38 has made a literal megawad—you should be vetting these people and denying them if they ask to join! NOVA was designed specifically for mappers that are wet behind the ears: folks that may have done some dabbling but have never been a part of a megawad that goes through its own alpha/beta/RC phases. If intermediate mappers want to join they should look for open slots elsewhere; NOVA should be for folks that have released ~5 maps maximum. ^{Although I guess it wouldn't be NOVA without a vet or two photobombing the project out of nowhere.}

 

Okay, so this was meant to be taken seriously? I understand that it's in the title, but NOVA has always seemed like a beginner wad in name only. I just looked at NOVA III's credits and more than half is experienced mappers. Naming just a few we have antares031, Bemused, Benjogami, Big ol' Billy, DMPhobos, Scotty, sincity2100. Basically all cacoward winners.

 

I'm definitely not an amateur mapper, but when I saw NOVA IV be announced, I thought it would be more like III again, so I signed up. I can let go of my spot and back out of the project with no issue if you genuinely want to rebrand this project as amateur mapper-focused. But 2 and 3 have been anything but that. Above anything else, I'd like it to be more clear what this wad is supposed to be.

[JackDBS]

12 minutes ago, Lorenz0 said:

I understand that it's in the title, but NOVA has always seemed like a beginner wad in name only. I just looked at NOVA III's credits and more than half is experienced mappers. Naming just a few we have antares031, Bemused, Benjogami, Big ol' Billy, DMPhobos, Scotty, sincity2100. Basically all cacoward winners.

I think that's because NOVA III had a development cycle of 3 years. I'm not sure if those mappers were as much experienced all the way back in 2016 when signups were made.