Solmyr Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Agent6 said: Those misalignment issues would be something new about Doom I just discovered. They're probably not easily noticed because I swear I never noticed them myself while playing in any Doom game, only in various PWADs :v . You are right, they are hard to notice, because of the low brightness of some levels, like E1M2 computer maze, and most players doesn't care much about missalignments unless they really get in the way, like COMPTALL missalignment in @NaZa's screenshot of Doom II MAP 02. E1M2: E1M3: E1M6: 2 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, NaZa said: Once you do notice the MAP02 misalignment it just hurts. 4 minutes ago, Solmyr said: E1M6: *pain intensifies* 0 Share this post Link to post
Cruduxy Pegg Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) Honestly the way the computers are done is extremely consistent. They were just reusing the same texture to get more varied computers. Same with many other wall textures. Example that feels horrible : Spoiler Some maps have hilarious misaligns that 100% came out from the mapper getting obsessed with detailing some areas as well -The last image has the entire map aligned except two parts that completely ruin it, am sure the mapper either did it quickly or went insane trying to align that room-: Spoiler Way too many places with STARTAN textures have misaligns. Ones welcoming the player to doom 1 : Spoiler And one of the most WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT I CANNOT UNSEE texturing-yes this is on two different windows, One of them is accessible from outside so you can see it in all its glory (comes with a horribly chosen floor under a soulsphere too-: Spoiler On topic : TIL E2M1 has some crazy brick texturing that puts many maps to shame. Edit : Spoiler 4 Share this post Link to post
Dragonsbrethren Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) I've said it before, and it was probably brought up a hundred times during Doom the wad id Did's development: Despite being one of his rules, Romero really didn't care about texture alignment. E2 and E3 have much better examples of properly aligned textures, with some obvious misses. E3M4 is always my go-to example: The start room has questionable alignment on the gargoyles, but the skin border in the crusher area is aligned almost perfectly despite oddball line lengths and angles. What Romero was really good at in E1 was height-based detailing and creating texture "palettes" that compliment each other well and signify different areas of the same level. A lot of his misalignments are the result of trying to break up orthogonal angles with STAR* textures that aren't really suited for it or splitting lines to use 24-wide SUPPORT2 borders. Also some of the fault lies with the textures themselves--COMPTALL is still a pain in the ass to align with today's visual previews, after all. 2 Share this post Link to post
mgr_inz_rafal Posted August 18, 2018 Don't forget the vine structure in E2M4, as shown on the screenshot below. But if you realize that this was all in the nineties, while we were still in the times when graphics in the games was mostly symbolic (red is blood, blue is probably sky), it is not a problem at all and I believe that even if Romero or somebody else noticed the misaligned texture, they didn't really care. The game looked awfully better than, let's say, Wolf or Spear of Destiny anyway. I personally don't remember noticing or worrying about any misalignments back in the nineties. What annoyed me more was the rooms with nukage or water on the ceiling, though :) I would say that perfectly aligned textures is a kind of requirement for maps created nowadays as we have better tools and a lot of modern games that we tend to compare (GZ)Doom to. 1 Share this post Link to post
Jon Posted August 19, 2018 Many of those cited misalignments I think are exactly as the mapper intended (eg e1m1) and aren’t misalignments at all. It might be a good idea to take the misalignment spotting to another thread. 2 Share this post Link to post
Jimmy Posted August 19, 2018 Friendly monsters are doable in Boom. Add 128 to the thing's "flag" argument in the THINGS lump, which you can edit in SLADE. Works with any monster, not just helper dogs. 6 Share this post Link to post
KVELLER Posted August 19, 2018 23 hours ago, Agent6 said: Those misalignment issues would be something new about Doom I just discovered. They're probably not easily noticed because I swear I never noticed them myself while playing in any Doom game, only in various PWADs :v . If you ever get into map making, you'll start seeing them everywhere, trust me. 4 Share this post Link to post
Jon Posted August 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Jimmy said: Friendly monsters are doable in Boom. Add 128 to the thing's "flag" argument in the THINGS lump, which you can edit in SLADE. Works with any monster, not just helper dogs. Technically MBF, which added both the friendly flag and helper dogs on top of boom. 2 Share this post Link to post
MTF Sergeant Posted August 20, 2018 While playing Brutal Doom, I found out that walking through glass windows on noclip can instakill you, even if you're in 200% health and in full armor. 0 Share this post Link to post
Teder Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) I don't know it was here, but SKINLOW texture is based on... hairy forearm :) I noticed it on hires version. Watch: left - hires right - original I know that one skinmet is based on Adrian's or Kevin's knee (I don't remember whose knee it was) :D 7 Share this post Link to post
Catpho Posted August 20, 2018 32 minutes ago, Teder said: I don't know it was here, but SKINLOW texture is based on... hairy forearm :) I noticed it on hires version. Watch: left - hires right - original I know that one skinmet is based on Adrian's or Kevin's knee (I don't remember whose knee it was) :D Ugh, i can't unsee that now. 0 Share this post Link to post
MTF Sergeant Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Catpho said: Ugh, i can't unsee that now. I laughed like hell after @Teder said about Adrian's/Kevin's knee! Yeah, even I can't unsee that texture now. 0 Share this post Link to post
Teder Posted August 20, 2018 @Catpho @MTF Sergeant yes I was unhappy too when I recognized hairy forearm :D 0 Share this post Link to post
KVELLER Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Catpho said: Ugh, i can't unsee that now. Isn't that texture supposed to be kinda gross though? You know, hell and all that :P 0 Share this post Link to post
galileo31dos01 Posted August 20, 2018 Speaking of things once seen can't be unseen, I found out yesterday that some of the hub doors in tricks 'n traps are cut in the rightmost border. 0 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted August 21, 2018 Well, after all these years I've only recently discovered the RL secret and the secret room with a few stimpacks to the left of the entrance to the outside area on MAP01 of Doom 2, and by accident. 3 Share this post Link to post
DrPengin Posted August 21, 2018 How the BFG actually works. As in the first ball of plasma and then the random tracers after. 0 Share this post Link to post
Edward850 Posted August 21, 2018 41 minutes ago, DrPengin said: How the BFG actually works. As in the first ball of plasma and then the random tracers after. The tracers aren't actually random, they are in a fixed spread: https://github.com/chocolate-doom/chocolate-doom/blob/8777b99cf72daed3cae0aa0a0ee730dc6610de2d/src/doom/p_pspr.c#L790 1 Share this post Link to post
kb1 Posted August 22, 2018 On 8/18/2018 at 3:27 PM, Dragonsbrethren said: ...Despite being one of his rules, Romero really didn't care about texture alignment... I don't think it was a case of not caring about alignment. Consider these points: They were all new to Doom mapping The concept of Doom mapping was changing each day The tools were primitive They may have had to align manually, wall by wall At 320x200, misalignment is a little less obvious They were in a rush to release, and the computers of the day were slow. Node and reject building was particularly slow. Even starting the game was slow. 20 hours ago, Edward850 said: The tracers aren't actually random, they are in a fixed spread: https://github.com/chocolate-doom/chocolate-doom/blob/8777b99cf72daed3cae0aa0a0ee730dc6610de2d/src/doom/p_pspr.c#L790 Looks pretty random to me... Spoiler damage = 0; for (j=0;j<15;j++) damage += (P_Random()&7) + 1; ...random enough for DrPengin's post to stand as-is. 1 Share this post Link to post
Edward850 Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) That's damage. Damage is random near-everywhere in Doom, and thus not a unique attribute to BFG tracers. His post does not stand as is. It's also highly unlikely that's what he noticed about them. When people don't know how the BFG works, the first thing they notice is the nonsensical behavior of where the tracers emit from (confusing some people to even think it's an explosion), not its apparent damage output. Edited August 22, 2018 by Edward850 4 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) On 8/19/2018 at 5:09 AM, Pegg said: Example that feels horrible : You guys must have lazer eyesight to notice ones like this, holy balls. The examples where STARTAN panels are clearly being cut off halfway and whatnot are one thing - I get those, but noticing the grain in the grey textures not wrapping 100% properly?! You guys would hate to look around in my maps if this kind of thing is a bother! 8 Share this post Link to post
Dragonfly Posted August 22, 2018 I spot it quite often in various maps (especially IWAD maps), but it's... "acceptable" at least, heh. I guess that 'laservision' comes with time once you're used to seeing maps which have been sufficiently 'autoaligned', etc. Not a deal breaker though. :P 2 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted August 22, 2018 I'm also starting to agree with @Jon. I don't think a lot of those misalignment issues really are issues but rather just how the creators wanted them, simply because they seem to be just too numerous for all of them to fall under that category. 0 Share this post Link to post
riderr3 Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) On 8/21/2018 at 9:26 AM, Agent6 said: Well, after all these years I've only recently discovered the RL secret and the secret room with a few stimpacks to the left of the entrance to the outside area on MAP01 of Doom 2, and by accident. From these data I can analyze: 1) You are not tried to edit MAP01 and make another clone like many of us. 2) Not much used IDDT and IDCLIP cheats. 3) Not played deathmatch on MAP01. 0 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted August 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, riderr3 said: From these data I can analyze: 1) You are not tried to edit MAP01 and make another clone like many of us. 2) Not much used IDDT and IDCLIP cheats. 3) Not played deathmatch on MAP01. 1) Nope. 2) Nope, I don't use cheats. 3) I no longer care about MP as a whole. 0 Share this post Link to post
Pegleg Posted August 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Dragonfly said: I spot it quite often in various maps (especially IWAD maps), but it's... "acceptable" at least, heh. I guess that 'laservision' comes with time once you're used to seeing maps which have been sufficiently 'autoaligned', etc. Not a deal breaker though. :P Remember when Romero was playing through "Arcadia Demade" with JP Lebreton and he started talking about some of the alignment of the GSTONE textures (at ~8:56) and nitpicking about how the textures are pegged and look like they're two different textures because the wide block is close to the narrow block? He made the comment that "this is what the community does now" with their standards. And I guess he was right... Personally, when I got back into Doom mapping, I opened up some of the iwad levels in an editor and was looking at some of the walls, which were not aligned at right angles and were 64 or 128 or 256 units wide (including some that had scrolling effects). I was rather impressed that the original designers, without the benefit of auto alignment features in their tools, were often able to align the textures so they looked rather seamless, or at least, not odd. There are instances with misalignment, certainly, but there are actually fewer than you might expect there to be. 5 Share this post Link to post
Dear Hoplite Posted August 22, 2018 I found out that on nightmare difficulty, 400 shots from a pistol won't kill a Cybie 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted August 22, 2018 Just now, Dear Hoplite said: I found out that on nightmare difficulty, 400 shots from a pistol won't kill a Cybie Why would you try to shoot a Cybie with a mere pistol? 0 Share this post Link to post
Cruduxy Pegg Posted August 22, 2018 Monster's don't have more health on NM. You just had bad RNG. 0 Share this post Link to post