I have to confess something about BTSX

[Devalaous]

I will say though, that I want E3 to have a map named I Am A Tree. That song title made me laugh a bit too much.

Obviously some song titles work better than others, for maps, Shadow Port and Demons are Real come to mind. I would have adjusted the names to not be as..nonsensical. But to each their own.

[SFoZ911]

I don't know about the map names. I really like them. its fun to play the maps and try to figure out why the author used that specific name for his map. some of them are actually quite cool like "tough skin river" and "nation gone dry" while some of them are just funny and ridiculous like "big chief chinese restaurant" and "speedtraps for the bee kingdom".

I think i'll try it on my own maps.

[Magnusblitz]

Yeah, I think the level names fit the maps (to the certain extent that Doom maps can fit stuff like that), but I agree with Ragnor that I was a bit disappointed to find that the names were cribbed from another source instead of just being weirdness invented by the map authors. Ah well.

(Can't blame you, I titled all my college papers after Soul Calibur II songs)

[Varis Alpha]

i think the slightly nonsensical-but-still-not-really names are kind of interesting, actually. i didn't know that BTSX actually had a written story of sorts, i just assumed that the story was there, but kind of unwritten, kind of how Equinox tells you shit about the story, but you can still see it all there, via the level-design and the whole progression further into it.

[kmxexii]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

BTSX...

If I had to sum up what I think is wrong with BTSX, (and wrong is entirely not the right word, as there is nothing actually 'wrong' with it,) the word I would choose is sterile.

It ticks all the boxes, but somehow lacks humanity. Maybe ticking all the boxes somehow put such hard boundaries around it that it somehow removed the 'freedom' in some weird way.

Just my 2 cents.

Antroid said:

putting polishing and staging and detailing everything above achieving an immersive experience.

i find these opinions to be insulting, as though i am incapable of discerning whether or not a wad like this has a nebulous quality like "humanity" and presenting yourself as a true connoisseur. but, hey, maybe i AM a great goddamn retard who cant see the difference

[Graf Zahl]

So? What's so bad about you having difficulty getting into this mod? I think everybody got one of that kind.

For me it's Alien Vendetta - I can't put my finger on it, but something in that WAD puts me off.

On the other hand I found BTSX Ep1 some of the best vanilla maps I ever played.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Just chiming in to say I absolutely love the map names and how they actually fit the maps. They're funny nonsense and descriptive at the same time, it's great, and I don't understand how anyone can hold something like map names against a project.

[purist]

I haven't played E2 yet but since this is about BTSX in general I'll give my thoughts on E1.

Contrary to others E1 actually exceeded my expectations. I knew it would be visually impressive but did not expect it to be so staggeringly complex in appearance and run in vanilla.

I also liked the new pallette, art and for the most part the textures. I didn't like the music, particularly but I wouldn't go so far to say it spoiled it. I sometimes play without music anyway.

Layouts were well designed on the levels I played. Gameplay in was between good and fair. I must say that once I'd got used to the impressive aesthetics I wasn't particularly excited about seeing the next level and both times I played I felt a bit fatigued by it after around 6 maps and I did not feel inclined to revisit it again.

Although it didn't spoil things like it did for some others I didn't like some of the more silly map names like US Mustard Company and Big Chiefs Chinese Restaraunt. I've got nothing against using song titles, I was doing the same thing for a megawad I started years ago but I used more applicable names (Atrocity Exhibition, Archives of Pain, Brain Damage). I like that the others used it as inspiration though. I didn't notice a link in the levels played (other than say Metal Mothers). I'd like a note from the authors to explain how they implemented the title in the map.

So, when there is a final E1 version I am going to play again and the will move onto E2 when it is on /idgames.

[Tarnsman]

purist said:

So, when there is a final E1 version I am going to play again and the will move onto E2 when it is on /idgames.

So in 2048?

[rampancy]

Tarnsman said:

So in 2048?

Who knows? Def before Mordeth. I thought Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 were finished a long time ago, until they came out and changed the med kits in some Neville Chamberlain-esque appeasement strategy. Ultimate Doom 2.0 will probably replace all the enemy firearms with flashlights like Spielberg did in E.T.

[Mordeth]

Doomkid said:
How did you get that bridge to float like that? Great Nilla trick, the thing that really puzzles me about it is how the sector has a 'real' floor rather than just a bunch of linedefs with STEPTOP as the texture. Very nice touch, gonna have to borrow that idea!

Welcome to the year 1997 :)

[whiteboy567]

Dragonsbrethren said:

Just chiming in to say I absolutely love the map names and how they actually fit the maps. They're funny nonsense and descriptive at the same time, it's great, and I don't understand how anyone can hold something like map names against a project.

Honestly, map names and story for a project are some of the most trivial nitpicks i've ever seen. People really give a rats ass about that stuff?

[rampancy]

Mordeth - Speak the demon's name and he shall come forth... ;-)

whitey - Yes, poor map title's are a sign of questionable parentage and cast serious doubt on ones ability to be a gentleman of class.

[Doomkid]

Mordeth said:

Welcome to the year 1997 :)

I don't ever wanna leave 1997.

Thanks for the link!

EDIT: Fuck, so obvious!

[Dragonsbrethren]

Mordeth said:

Welcome to the year 1997 :)

Heh, I learned how to make your bridge not too long after I learned how to make a door.

[Devalaous]

Dragonsbrethren said:

Just chiming in to say I absolutely love the map names and how they actually fit the maps. They're funny nonsense and descriptive at the same time, it's great, and I don't understand how anyone can hold something like map names against a project.

Its about immersion for me, much like how music is for some people. Part of the charm of the first three IWADs was using the map name to help form a sense of place and purpose amidst the abstract mess. I could form my own vision from the maps, map names, and story text. It thus wouldnt be a surprise if I said I also dont like E4's map names much, nor many of Plutonia's.

A lot of players have very different ways of enjoying the game.

[plums]

I think a problem with referencing other works in general in any creative effort is that you can't expect your audience to have the same connection to the referenced item as you do. How much this matters varies, but obviously it can make a big difference to some people.

Quite relatedly, I bought a sweater with this picture on it a while ago, because I thought it was a cool design, not realizing that it was inspired from a GBV song. I don't wear it much since I discovered that it was from that song, not that it's even a bad song, or that I am worried about looking "fake" by the 1% of people that might recognize it, it just changes the meaning of it for me.

[Not Jabba]

For what it's worth, I think the level names in BTSX help to immerse me more, not less. Makes the whole thing feel more surreal, like some godlike archdemon is playing games with your perceptions of reality or something.

[Tarnsman]

plums said:

Quite relatedly, I bought a sweater with this picture on it a while ago, because I thought it was a cool design, not realizing that it was inspired from a GBV song. I don't wear it much since I discovered that it was from that song, not that it's even a bad song, or that I am worried about looking "fake" by the 1% of people that might recognize it, it just changes the meaning of it for me.

The level of hipster in that statement is frankly outstanding

[plums]

Tarnsman said:

The level of hipster in that statement is frankly outstanding

Hahaha, I can see it. But really, "thing had another meaning I didn't know about; learning about that other meaning changes the way I feel about the thing" isn't that unreasonable is it? Or do I need to go pick up a 6-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon tonight?

[darkreaver]

So, confession time is it, eh?

BTSX E2: except for a few, the maps are mostly outstanding, both in looks and gameplay, I must say. The craftmanship (mapping, textures, music (even though I do not agree with many of the chosen songs)) is all the way up there. Top notch. But as others, there is something..."missing" (?). There is something I can not put my finger on that makes me not appreciate it as much as I should. Maybe it's the new palette and textures? They are good, but I think maybe it takes the game a little too far from Doom. It feels almost like a TC. I dunno.

Oh, and also: the map and episode names sucks though. I think its a really bad idea basing all the names on some silly song titles.

[Antroid]

esselfortium said:

No.

Yeah I apologize, I probably should not have said that. Even if I may have thought that at that moment. Truthfully I have no doubt that all the map authors in these wads have been shooting for an immersive experience as well as other things. There's no reason for them not to. What I MEANT to say is closer to "the way they approached it is different from what I'm perceptive to".

kmxexii said:

i find these opinions to be insulting, as though i am incapable of discerning whether or not a wad like this has a nebulous quality like "humanity" and presenting yourself as a true connoisseur. but, hey, maybe i AM a great goddamn retard who cant see the difference

I'm sure KiiiYiiiKiiiA didn't mean it to be insulting, and neither did I. It's obviously a highly subjective thing - no matter how sure you are you achieved something there's always gonna be a chance of someone else not feeling it. We only mean how it feels to us, not some actual measurable quality of the wad - at least I do. You might say in this case it's a bit useless as feedback, but hey, opinions gotta be expressed - it's that kind of thread.

[Doomkid]

plums said:

Hahaha, I can see it. But really, "thing had another meaning I didn't know about; learning about that other meaning changes the way I feel about the thing" isn't that unreasonable is it? Or do I need to go pick up a 6-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon tonight?

Nah, I've done that shit before, I think everyone has. If knowing what something means has zero effect on your opinion of it, that's when something is wrong. You still need to go pick up a 6-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon tonight, though.

[kmxexii]

Antroid said:

I'm sure KiiiYiiiKiiiA didn't mean it to be insulting, and neither did I. It's obviously a highly subjective thing - no matter how sure you are you achieved something there's always gonna be a chance of someone else not feeling it. We only mean how it feels to us, not some actual measurable quality of the wad - at least I do. You might say in this case it's a bit useless as feedback, but hey, opinions gotta be expressed - it's that kind of thread.

really i know that this boils down to PWADs lacking "that certain something" when you see no real reason why you shouldn't like it and yet still don't. and maybe i shouldnt come down on delving into the metaphysics of doom to try to explain why you or i or someone else doesn't feel it, so to speak. but i think that any attempt to justify your feelings on those grounds is ultimately for your own benefit, not the authors. and maybe thats part of what its about. i dont think you need to like any PWAD, or be able to offer helpful criticism to the author. but if the only feedback you can offer is that it just doesn't do it for you, its p much ignorable. which im sure you know. it would be cool if you had as much fun with btsx as i did, but there are plenty of other PWADs in the sea.

on the other hand there are the dudes attributing the development process itself to BTSX's failure. which is really where im coming from when i say its insulting to me, like i am some kind of dupe who fails to realize how utterly the authors gutted the true, free soul of the PWAD from BTSX. but, well, i have a feeling that we are both set in our ways; i love BTSX, and you dont, and thats fine by me. i would be an idiot to try to convince you that you should like something when you clearly dont.

[Marnetmar]

Why does this need its own thread?

[kmxexii]

Marnetmar said:

Why does this need its own thread?

because everyone is upset that rending halls is still not done

[Snakes]

kmxexii said:

i would be an idiot to try to convince you that you should like something when you clearly dont.

Quitter.

[Cynical]

kmxexii said:

i find these opinions to be insulting, as though i am incapable of discerning whether or not a wad like this has a nebulous quality like "humanity" and presenting yourself as a true connoisseur. but, hey, maybe i AM a great goddamn retard who cant see the difference

I understand what he's saying I think, although his wording is a bit awkward.

To me at least, it feels like, in terms of the action present, most of the levels are very undifferentiated (and I don't mean from each other, but from Doom at large). It's (mostly) solidly enough done, but the dearth of "concept" (I'm borrowing a term from the Unreal mapping community here -- some would call it "gimmickry", although I'm going for a slightly broader idea than what that implies) in the action leaves me feeling like I'm going through the motions; everything is very "correct" -- the monsters are used the right way, the traps pop like I've seen a million times before, but there's nothing that stands out to really surprise me.

Compare this with a lot of the best wads. Alien Vendetta has a ton of levels that I can remember loads of encounters in, and not even just the crazy slaughterish ones -- weird concepts such as the network of monster-teleporter hallways in map 27, or the combination of resource-starvation and the looping layout drawing you forward with fishook-like flow in map 06. Deus Vult II has a very idiosyncratic tendency towards "pseudo-scripted" encounters. Demonfear and Scythe have their "one-and-done" philosophy, where the maps are almost just one combat idea and an exit. Unholy Realms's first episode is mostly unremarkable, but when it gets going, it's got a calling card in its tendency towards open maps that at least give the appearance of being sandboxy, with many encounters approachable in radically different ways. Hell Revealed has innovative layouts that test strategic planning more-so than immediate twitch skill. Hell Ground manages to somehow make all of the old Doom traps legitimately surprising again, and has some really wacky progression ideas in some of its maps.

This may be why I think that the best maps from what I've played of the BtSX wads (which isn't all of them; I played most of E1, but quit after Tarnsman's sandbox map, and from E2 I've played 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 31, and 18) are the ones that are stylistic outliers -- that claustrophobic trap-based map from the middle section of E1, and map 31 from E2. Those two felt like they had an idea to the action other than "competently done running and gunning".

Now that I look back at the above, it kinda looks like I'm using the word "concept" to mean "originality", but that's not what I mean. Hopefully that paragraph about BtSX makes it clearer. It's not about "something brand new!", it's about "some theme to the map's action beyond 'run, kill shit'".

[Guest]

Just to take the thread in a slightly different direction, I always felt that BTSX would have worked so much better with all new custom monsters. I think that would somehow have really given this wad what it was 'missing'.

The textures and the levels are really very very good, so neither of these things to me is the issue. (Possibly some of the levels could have been more differentiated though.) Somehow, I think the monsters and/or monster placement is a big thing here. All new monsters in an all new mapset with all new textures? Now we are talking something truly unique and immersive.

It is like the textures are so unique that the original monsters are almost out of place.

Again, just my 2c.

Cynical said:

Stuff.

Yes.

[Antroid]

That's actually a pretty interesting thought, IMO even if the monsters were the same but used slightly edited sprites, it would've changed a lot in my perception of BTSX. Kinda like Doom 64! It had an atmosphere noticeably different from the originals and I don't think it would've worked if they just used the original enemy sprites. In case of BTSX I'm mostly imagining minor edits, like adding details to the sprites: scars and various dark splotches on imps, signs of wear or camo paint on the chaingunner's armor, a general more withered look and threads hanging from the caco and pain elemental, some spikes on the barons' bodies kinda like imps have... Hm. It probably would not have been worth the effort but an interesting thought nonetheless.

Also, I recently had a thought, even though the two current episodes of btsx don't "grip" me, I would've loved to see the team make a city episode like this - new textures and all. Not saying "do it for me NOW" or anything - just a hypothetical scenario. I think that for me city maps are the most forgivable for repetition and all that stuff, and they are kind of more inherently atmospheric than any other setting - again, for me. Would've been an awesome thing.