Custom monsters, GO or NO?

[Sonikkumania]

I'm personally a fan of custom monsters found in wads, though too much is too much honestly.

What is too much? When you've added all the beastiary from a simple Skeleton to a Duke 3D boss monster into your wad, that becomes just corny.

Kinda like Aeons of Death but attempted to be super serious. Having some new monsters can spice things up in a mild enough flavour.

Actually I myself am guilty of changing the core gameplay of Doom in favour of custom enemies. This might be a mixed bag and even a NO NO for many players but what can you do.

So anyway what do you guys think about custom monsters in general?

[obake]

Depends on the wad.

 

I've built my brand on a unique library of custom enemies. Look up "Enterprises: Rebooted" on YouTube and you'll see just some of them.

 

I love crafting new enemies of my own, and seeing how players react to them. But I also understand that having too many can be a problem, especially if some of them are redundant.

[RastaManGames]

I am agree with @obake that it depends on the WAD.

 

If task is to make an partial or full-pledged TC, then custom enemies is good to go along with custom weapons and etc.

 

But, personally, I am trying to stick with vanilla bestiary and arsenal on my maps, so players can use their own favorite mods that replaces enemies and weapons.

[Geniraul]

I think as long as the WAD succeeds to keep the aesthetics and principles of Doom's atmosphere and gameplay, basically what @Stupid Bunny mentioned in this post, it does benefit from adding something original to that by creating couple of well-made custom enemies.

 

Another important point is however that the monsters should fit into the in-game environment as well, both aesthetically and in terms of the gaming process. If the newer monsters look completely "foreign" in a certain WAD or do not bring any reasonable combat to the table (example: enemies are just staying), then it can affect the impression that one might have from such a WAD rather negatively.

 

Valiant is a brilliant example of how to add some more original demons without ruining the gameplay, while increasing both quantity and quality of aspects of player's gaming experience.

 

Sunder's bees definitely don't feel out of place either, because they appear suddenly (Sunderly) and serve as an additional element to vary the gameplay, as the WAD concentrates on making the player choose the right tactics rather than amusing them with new enemies.

 

As for total conversions, I think it's easier to not fail in appropriating the Doom atmosphere than in regular WADs (since in TCs it doesn't necessarily have to be done), but it's more difficult to concentrate on creating some really original monsters/enemies. Chex Quest series and Ashes 2063 might be a good example of how to do so.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Geniraul : typo

[PsychEyeball]

Again, it fully depends on the WAD. I liked Eviternity and Ozonia in that regard as the new monsters felt like they belonged in the game and weren't horribly spammed all around the place. But Scythe 2's Evil Marines just gave me headaches and made me want to stop playing the WAD altogether. Outside of its original appearance, any moment they appear in the game, the action grinds to a screeching halt because there's no way you can let them roam around the map unless you wanna die in a second. 

[Fiber Wire]

I’m fine with custom monsters but I feel when the art doesn’t really fit in with the Doom monsters it looks really weird. So I prefer monsters that feel like they’d be a part of the original roster or variants of the preexisting monsters. Additional former humans can be cool too, but again, I prefer them to look and feel like they could’ve fit with the other former humans. 

[Fadri]

Adding just a small amount of new enemy types with their own original twists can make wads feel more original, as long as the game still feel balanced, like in Eviternity or Skillsaw's wads.
I haven't played Scythe 2 to give my own opinion, but seems like a common complaint is that the new enemies there has too much health or are just as fast and aggresive as a deathmatch player. This kind of new enemies might be less fun. :P

Edited March 22, 2023 by Fadri

[kwc]

I like them to for the most part.

I'm guilty of constantly making edits to monsters in WhackEd or simply replacing the sprites for XYZ reason. (Additionally this has contributed to some of the scope-creep that has led me to never finishing my work!)

I'd agree that if they didn't fit with the wad or made some kind of drastic behaviour change, they'd take some getting used to or be detrimental to the """experience""" at worst. On the flip-side, custom enemies can enrich the experience or introduce new and interesting encounters at best. 
Ultimately, from a designer perspective, making a change like this for the sake of making the change may be ill-advised. However, as a hobbiest, I kinda encourage messing around like this, there isn't much better a time to fuck around and experiment.

 

Anecdotally, I've yet to be truly put-off by a custom monster.

 

[Bauul]

"Custom monsters" is quite a broad scale unto itself.  It can technically cover some really minor changes, for example many recent wads have started implementing "half-health Lost Souls" to stop them being so tanky - technically those are now custom monsters.

 

I think most people would find a well-balanced, artistically consistent custom monster a reasonable addition to a map that was designed for it.  Where that line is will probably vary per person, and per mapset.  

[Oxyde]

It mostly depends on what the author tries to achieve and how well those monsters work within the level.

 

I prefer interesting gimmicks over projectile barrages. Just a few quick ideas on custom monsters:

• Monsters with negative mass, making them accelerate on hit
• Monsters with altered sequences of attacks, like a different Mancubus fireball sequence
• A monster that can only truly die when gibbed, otherwise would end up respawning

 

Also, I don't really like bullet sponges above all. I take the standard beastiary of Doom as a reference and the Baron being set at the highest health amount; Anything above 5 SSG shots feels boring to defeat.

 

Just my two cents on the concept. As @Bauul put it very well, the definition of a monster is quite large, ranging from creating literally, a wall with HP, to making the most ridiculous boss fights!

[Misty]

Well, if you slap entire realm667 monster, weaponry and decoration repository on your map without thinking how it will play and look, I might think that you're still newbie trying to find your way into modding and mapping. Moderation is the key when you add new monsters in your level - well added new monster or weapon type might spice level up and bring something new on the table. I liked how Valiant introduced new bestiary through playthrough, same as Ancient Aliens Struggle or Eviternity. 

[banjiepixel]

My main issue with custom monsters is when they use vanilla dehacked states outside of the default and the usual keen+wolfss as these can be incompatible with my own personal gameplay modding. But custom monsters are usually less problematic than modified weapons to me. And I rather see custom monsters that are harder than just adding more of the default monsters to the map.

[Sonikkumania]

1 hour ago, Misty said:

Well, if you slap entire realm667 monster, weaponry and decoration repository on your map without thinking how it will play and look, I might think that you're still newbie trying to find your way into modding and mapping. Moderation is the key when you add new monsters in your level 

Agree. It becomes quite messy if you have Heretic, Duke and Blake Stone enemies cramped up in the same wad. 

[Fairen]

Certainly a thing that depends on the monsters themselves, how well they fit in and how well they're utilized.

 

The WAD I've played with the most custom monsters was KDizD, which did have some interesting additions, but some of them did feel overly redundant with existing monsters; e.g. too many imp varieties. (But yanno they still reliably died to a super-shotgun blast...)

 

Honestly, I feel like not enough WAD creators consider rebalancing existing monsters, alongside adding new monsters. Why do you need a Badder Imp if you could just make regular imps a bit more threatening, say with faster fireballs or movement?

[Uncle 80]

Recolors, frankensprites, and monsters from other games are usually not to my liking. Notable exceptions include the beautifully sprited versions of the Q1 bestiary found in Dimensions Of The Boomed, an all-round excellent partial conversion, I may add. But slightly faster imps, Imps with a few more horns, slightly darker imps, demons only with robotic legs... all that stuff is just lame.

 

Monsters of interest include stuff like Batman Doom, and... I can't think of much else. The new guys from Ancient Aliens (and the rather nice improved Arachnotron and Mancubus). Osiris was nice back in the day because the reskins had a thematic purpose - but feel a little dated today.

 

Edit: Harmony!

Edited March 22, 2023 by Uncle 80

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Sometimes the new sprites are SUPER cool! Its nice to see some WADs add some extra flavour to the default DooM bestiary. With that said, if the sprites look ugly or are offensive, I'm not going to be a fan of them.

[Ludi]

It's entirely dependent on the gameplay opportunities. If your custom monster just fulfills an already existing niche, then dont bother.

[Egyptian Guardian]

7 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

I liked Eviternity and Ozonia in that regard as the new monsters felt like they belonged in the game and weren't horribly spammed all around the place. 

 

The grey cacos that shoot macubi fireballs and can kill you in a matter of seconds in Eviternity are terrible and should of never been added in.

[ChaseC7527]

unless it's a total conversion, i dont really like too outrageously custom monsters, just stuff thats based on already ingame monsters.

[bofu]

I like custom monsters that fit with the existing Doom aesthetic and feel like natural extensions of the monster roster, and even then, I don't like when they're spammed unless they're fodder enemies. In my current project, I was careful to make sure that the custom monsters I added fit, but also that they weren't used haphazardly. One is a super shotgun zombie (slightly tougher than a chaingunner, fires twice as many shells as a shotgunner, has a lengthy reload time, drops the SSG on death - used when a normal shotgunner would be too easy to kill but chaingunners would do too much sustained damage) and the other is a miniboss variant of the Archvile that has a faster flame attack (with some built-in flame projectiles firing in a torrent) and summons enemies instead of resurrecting them, loosely based on the Summoner enemy from Doom 2016. Neither are used in very great number.

 

Not a fan of very overpowered boss monsters, enemies ported from other games, or enemies that fill a role that's already being filled. Looking at you, Ifrits.

[Terrcraft]

I think custom monsters are underrated. I get the reputation because sometimes it's off-putting but I really wish people would experiment more with them and even boss/final boss monsters. Because honestly its hard for a final boss to be worse than ios

[Murdoch]

Bad custom monsters are bad.

 

Good custom monsters are good.

 

This has been another insightful post by a guy who should be focusing more on his work than posting nonsense...

[enigma101]

I like custom monsters. Most of the time if custom monsters are used to replace all the usual Doom monsters, then it's a bit excessive, but using one or two to make a map a bit more different is fine, and makes the map a bit more surprising honestly.

[Nikku4211]

Custom enemies are okay, that is if you know what you doing.

 

If you don't, you'd get stuff like overpowered enemies that are just moving still images.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

It would honestly surprise me to ever see this community turn its nose up at custom enemies, when so many of the most beloved and widely praised maps/megawads feature them. Yeah, they're better when they're used well, but that applies to just about everything.   

[LadyMistDragon]

Sure, but they often aren't implemented in a way where it seems like they'd been tested for a bit.

[Dopaminecloud]

I've never felt like doom was lacking an enemy with massive firepower so anything that spams projectiles beyond mancubus levels always feels a bit awkward to me. A fair few custom monsters, in trying to find a spot in the existing roster I imagine, try to basically just one-up other monsters and act like multiple standing inside of each other.

[Sonikkumania]

4 hours ago, Murdoch said:

This has been another insightful post by a guy who should be focusing more on his work than posting nonsense...

Glad you are self aware. 

[Gez]

some people have used custom monsters poorly, or at least in ways that didn't please me, therefore custom monsters are bad

 

also some people have used custom textures poorly, or at least in ways that didn't please me, therefore custom textures are bad

 

furthermore, some people have made custom maps poorly, or at least maps that didn't please me, therefore custom maps are bad

[Sonikkumania]

16 hours ago, Uncle 80 said:

Recolors, frankensprites, and monsters from other games are usually not to my liking.

I always thought to myself if there exists a term like "Frankensprite", lol. Really hit the spot.

I made an experiment to recolor some human enemies from Blake Stone and Wolfenstein with pixelated camouflage pattern, and it didn't look that bad.

Though might be I'd change my opinion with passed time.