Doom map tropes you love & hate

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, Sir Hattington said:

you can put some type of way to get around the damaging floor, like a challenging platforming section with some lost souls

Why should anybody create a section they want players to go through no matter what, only to make going through that section pointless by offering a "better" alternative which makes the original section obsolete?

5 minutes ago, Sir Hattington said:

there are many softlocks that can occur in doom but this one is arguably one of the more common ones

Didn't have any particular issues with this in the grand scheme of things. If it is that common, then the +700 WADs I played through must have been some of the "luckiest" picks of my life.

 

Also, let's remind ourselves real quick that the word softlock is used extremely liberally here, and dying players on hurt floor aren't exactly something that indicates a softlock. All it indicates is that players had some problem prior, and used up all the resources the mapper provided.

[Sir Hattington]

Just now, Nine Inch Heels said:

Why should anybody create a section they want players to go through no matter what, only to make going through that section pointless by offering a "better" alternative which makes the original section obsolete?

Because the alternative route will be much harder than just taking the damage, and if you got yourself into the situation that you cant get through the forced damage you could get yourself out of it, it would just be harder than if you didn't take as much damage throughout the level.

[OliveTree]

just once i want a "dead simple" level with one arachnotron and one mancubus and the level is about finding and killing them so you can succeed in like a spiral shaped obstacle course or something

[magicsofa]

Basically it comes down to, is the map beatable by a standard that is both reasonable and intended by the author? And I'm pretty sure none of your examples are softlocks. I thought a softlock was when some part of the game is not functioning. If the mapper wants to create a really annoying forced damage section, then yeah that's annoying, but it's not a softlock. It's just ridiculously hard. Even if it's impossible to beat, that doesn't mean the game isn't functioning, it means the mapper created an impossible situation. Whatever the case, compulsory damaging floors are not inherently bad (or good) and they can be balanced (or not) in many different ways. What if the damaging floor is literally covered with medikits? It's still forced damage, and if you stand in one spot you will die, but it could be incredibly easy to pass. It's perfectly valid to like or dislike forced damage, but to say that it's completely pointless is just wrong.

Back on topic:

Like: Giving the player outrageous advantages once in a while, just for funsies. (ie, here's a RL and a lineup of oblivious monsters)

Dislike: Monster traps ALWAYS triggering when you grab keys. It's fun some of the time but for me it removes immersion. Seems a bit silly that demons would coordinate themselves to wait for you to grab a keycard. I'd think that as soon as they smell your mortal flesh, they'd ruin the surprise...

[Master O]

I want a "Dead Simple" level as a cutscene where a lone Arachnotron and Mancubus fight it out SF2 style, but you can't skip the cutscene.  You have to watch the whole thing.

 

>:)

[DoomSpud]

Likes:
- New concepts I've never seen before. Mappers pushing UMDF and ACS/Zscript to their limits. "Extermination Day" is a good example of a lot of new things I'd never seen or even thought possible in idTech1. I really love mappers pushing the limits of the engine.

- Infighting. Maps setup in a way that allow the player to take full advantage of monster infighting. I love being stuck in the middle of a massive cross-fire of hellspawn, slowly picking off the stragglers while the big bastards duke it out around me. The more chaos the better.

- Attention to detail. GZDoomBuilder can grid-scale down to 0.125mu... TAKE ADVANTAGE!!

Dislikes:
- Monster spawns that don't use the "SpawnNoFog" string. If youre trying to surprise me with spawning monsters but I can hear the teleport sound going off, you failed and might as well have just placed the monsters normally and not even bothered with spawning them. Do it properly or don't do it at all.

- 'Dead Simple' clones. 'Nuff said.

- Revenant spamming. Fastest way for me turn your WAD off, delete it from my hard drive and never play or speak of it again.

[Doomkid]

I get where AD_79 is coming from, but sometimes saying I dislike something isn’t meant in a negative way, it’s more just giving my opinion on what I think is fun - as long as you aren’t putting the mapper down, telling someone what you dislike can be crucial for some people in honing their skills. I fucking hate when it’s just all negative feedback though, you should always tell the author what they’ve done right as well! People are more willing to listen when you’re not a dick anyways.

 

For example, I dislike any DM player spawn point where you don’t immediately have a shotgun, SSG, RL or Plasma, because it means certain spawn points on the map are guaranteed death. The chaingun, pistol and chainsaw all take so long to deal any notable amount of damage that they’re always trumped by the other guns, the exception being in really wide areas of course, which are rare in DM. BFG spawns also kinda suck because a player should have to make the conscious decision to seek out a BFG, but that’s just me. I gotta tell DM mappers I dislike this stuff because if I don’t I’m helping doom their maps to obscurity!

 

It’s not really a mapping trope as such, but I love when wads use vanilla-compat dehacked lumps. A few small changes, or sometimes sweeping changes, can really help to give a wad character. My favourite releases in the last few years are REKKR and Alien Bastards! because they felt so fun and fresh while still being Doom at their core. They’re also pretty rare in the overall spectrum of mapsets released.

[Nine Inch Heels]

37 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I get where AD_79 is coming from, but sometimes saying I dislike something isn’t meant in a negative way, it’s more just giving my opinion on what I think is fun - as long as you aren’t putting the mapper down, telling someone what you dislike can be crucial for some people in honing their skills.

Hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't mind if you felt like for example platforming in classic doom was the worst shit to ever happen. I can live with your preferences perfectly fine. But when it comes to arguments like "Mappers should put something in their maps that makes it so I don't have to play the parts of the maps I don't like" I can't not be at least annoyed at how that comes across. Doubly so when such opinions are presented as though they were some kind of paradigm by which one might seperate wheat from chaff.

[Doomkid]

Any feedback should be taken knowing that it's just that persons opinion - I know that the use of things like should and should not in a review can be annoying but sometimes people can't be bothered with eloquence, which is fine. As a mapper, I hope for players to put their opinion out there for me to either take on board or ignore. Players who pipe up and share their thoughts are invaluable imo, I'm happy when anyone plays my turf but if they say nothing, I have no chance to grow. I'd rather them list of all the stuff they didn't like than leaving me to simply never consider their perspective! I think I understand what you're getting at though, people who go around acting like there's some "objective truth" to mapping are obviously really dumb and irritating.

 

I got a ton of exposure from IcarusLives when he reviewed Doomed in Space and basically panned it from head to toe, saying next to nothing positive about it. It sucks that a popular reviewer did our work dirty like that cause there was a lot done right that was simply not mentioned, but still, it resulted in the wad ending up with well over a thousand downloads and I did feel like I learnt a bit from his review despite it being pretty much wholly negative. If he had just opted to not review it because he didn't have anything good to say, it would be relegated to complete obscurity which wouldn't undo the fun we had making it of course, but it's still nice to see your stuff getting talked about, even if it's trash talk. I prefer that any day!

 

There's also something to be said for separating wheat from chaff, though I feel much more strongly about this in multiplayer. I understand the joy of doing something different and experimental, but there's no fun to be had in multiplayer when it's just you playing. Standard Doom multiplayer is already niche enough, doing something that the majority of players dislike will guarantee no one joins your server. It's a totally different story in singleplayer, I love having stuff thrown at me that's new or unexpected or even sometimes that irritates me, because it pushes me harder to beat the map (and I don't have to rely on others also liking it for the game to start, unlike in multiplayer).

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, DoomSpud said:

- Monster spawns that don't use the "SpawnNoFog" string. If youre trying to surprise me with spawning monsters but I can hear the teleport sound going off, you failed and might as well have just placed the monsters normally and not even bothered with spawning them. Do it properly or don't do it at all.

 

You forgot the word 'Remote' or 'Distant' in front of that? Because otherwise I don't get this. 

 

1 hour ago, DoomSpud said:

- Attention to detail. GZDoomBuilder can grid-scale down to 0.125mu... TAKE ADVANTAGE!!

 

The difference between 0.125 mu and 1 mu is practically imperceptible. And a lot of gorgeous, visually ornate stuff doesn't drop below the 8x8 grid. 

 

 

[seed]

Like: Attention to detail, hot starts, shortcuts/skippable areas, infighting, strong atmosphere, fast/intense combat, good use of the environment, plenty of height variation, unorthodox/bizarrely creative ideas.

Hate: Cryptic progression, exit in the starting room on long maps/excessive backtracking, repetitiveness, grindfests, inconsistency, lack of (any) challenge, monster pop-ins (the last is by far the only thing that makes my blood boil every single time I see it).

[Phobus]

Like:

• Maps where the author is obviously experimenting with features. Double points for ZDoom
• ZDoom in general
• Speed maps, and map sets thereof (obviously quality is highly variable)
• Being given open layouts to traverse in multiple valid ways with optional areas and objectives
• Easy starting levels
• Tech bases, especially E1 style, but also highly detailed modern ones
• Cities in Doom
• Sector furniture/"Doom cute" sector objects (boats, cars, etc.)
• Use of MAPINFO to break the normal level progression and division. I don't need a text screen on beating MAP06 every time!

Dislike:

• Dead Simple clones (there are better ways to use the special behaviour)
• Icon of Sin levels (they're often way too hard and cryptic with all the time pressure)
• Enemies instantly popping out of solid ground in front of you. I don't mind the trick, but I do mind seeing it. Particularly the way Speed of Doom did it.
• When a map set is a constant series of tightly choreographed arenas, traps and ambushes. The odd gauntlet map is ok, but if you don't change it up with some free form progression, I won't be playing all the way through.
• Super high difficulty. My days of repeatedly banging my head against brick wall challenges are over. If I'm not beating it in a few attempts, or I feel like I needed to know the map in advance in order to beat it, then I'll accept it's too hard and I'm not having fun... And stop playing.
• Slaughter maps. I think a big fight should be the climax of a map (or map set), not just the whole map.
• Starting off in a big room crowded with enemies facing away from you. It's a clear sign that the above two complaints are highly likely.

[yakfak]

like: cryptic progression; backtracking and dead ends; repetitive grind-fests

dislike: consistency, ammo and radsuits

[Capellan]

21 minutes ago, Phobus said:

Dislike:

• Enemies instantly popping out of solid ground in front of you. I don't mind the trick, but I do mind seeing it. 

 

You have my axeshotgun!

[JustCallMeKaito]

Tropes I Enjoy: 

• Damaging floors being present in fights.
• Fake exits, especially if you can actually make it convincing.
• Invisibility sphere right before a hitscanner orgy.
• Ambushes that have both arachnotrons and mancubi.
• Making the hell knight a common enemy as a mapset progresses.
• Allowing the player to collect keys in whatever order they want.
• Crushers and barrels placed to help take out enemies.
• Respriting Nazis and making them the new zombie on the block.
• Fake traps to screw with the player.

Tropes I Hate:

• Platforming, especially if it requires jump / crouch. Jumping feels worse than it does in a handful of NES games.
• Inescapable damage pits. Burn in Hell, foul trope.
• Switch hunts with no bloody indication of where to go or what to do.
• Secrets with no indicators that can only be found by getting giggity with every wall you come across.
• Having multiple corridors that are less than 128 units wide and filled with enemies.
• Crate mazes. It's just one texture spammed everywhere in a series of obnoxiously tight spaces.
• Long range hitscanners. Just why?
• Refusing to give the player the SSG when up against mid-tier monsters.
• Any map that is so stiff that it makes you aware that everything you are looking at is bound to a grid.

[Roofi]

11 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Like: Weird, quirky, creative, unorthodox stuff

Dislike: Stuff that apes "The Aspiring WAD-Designer's Handbook of objectively™ good design"

 

 

I agree 100% with this. That's why I'm happy that mappers like TimeOfDeath or gggmork exist

[SchwTrdLeenW]

Like: - Intense starts where you're placed in the center of a massive crossfire and have to dash forward and establish a save foothold before you can tackle the rest of the map.
- Forced pistol starts.

- Abstract, dreamlike environment with a clean texture scheme.

 

Dislike: - Slow, "fair and balanced" weapon and enemy progression, because more often than not it becomes boring very fast. I prefer it when a mapset offers exciting and thrilling gameplay from the get go (i.e. Ancient Aliens and Plutonia).

- When a map tries too hard to look and feel realistic. I know that many people have a faible for this stuff, but i think abstract environments offer more possibilities for engaging gameplay and beautiful maps.

- Continuous play in general, as it ignores some of the most engaging gameplay aspects that Doom has to offer (at least in my book).

[Crunchynut44]

I must be the only one who likes Dead Simple clones, then again i'm a nostalgia whore so any kind of throwback to the original games is a check in my books. I also like slow weapon and monster curves in WADs, to me it makes a map set feel 'whole' so to speak rather than a set of individual levels. Being able to see areas before I can reach them is also a wonderful thing, especially secrets and exits. Finally I actually find beauty in simplicity, I think orthogonal shapes and interesting lighting makes for a much better aesthetic then a level that uses 100 lindefs for a wall trim.

 

The only things I really don't like are linear 'room by room' levels, especially when combined with slaughter.

[eulo]

Like:

Abundance of secrets, including the ones with traces, like the item in the secret is shown through a window.

Linear layouts with the occasional loops back to previously seen areas.

Adventure style progression with all level showing off its own personality, sense of place, and ideas.

Environmental hazards as part of the game.

 

Dislike:

Ripoff art/sound/code from other games.

Funky colours like magenta, purple or cyan.

Slaughterish gameplay.

Remakes of existing levels without new ideas used.

Unnecessary hard to navigate nonlinear levels with lots of backtracking and annoying switch hunting.

Too long, slowly progressing mapsets, ie. most megawads.

[eulo]

8 hours ago, magicsofa said:

Dislike: Monster traps ALWAYS triggering when you grab keys. It's fun some of the time but for me it removes immersion. Seems a bit silly that demons would coordinate themselves to wait for you to grab a keycard. I'd think that as soon as they smell your mortal flesh, they'd ruin the surprise...

 

OMG, this is so true. +1 sent.

[Jayextee]

Okay, being put in a no-win situation due to low health is not the same as being softlocked for fuck's sake. Die and restart the level, or reload a save. You're not locked in any fashion.

 

39 minutes ago, Crunchynut44 said:

I must be the only one who likes Dead Simple clones

 

Nah, I'm actually sorta fond of them too -- boss arena-type layouts are some of the most 'videogame-y' things DOOM level design does, and as an ardent oldschool arcade gamer, I wish the game did more of those sort of things; or at least, the vanilla executable offered by default ways to do them on more than just the small handful of set maps.

[snapshot]

The only thing I can say I dislike is the forced arena fights where you get locked in a Room that you have to clear to progress, it feels like the level is intentionally being dragged on for too long by not letting you freely run around, but I know some people like the sense of tension this can lead to when you can't escape a tough arena until you've cleared it. Thankfully these don't seem to be used very often, at least not from what I've played.

[pcorf]

Like

Secrets and lots of them.

Architecture, atmosphere.

Dark levels.

Realism, no walls behind sky, etc.

Classic challenge.

Arch Viles.

Cacodemons.

Hell Knights (including Baron variants).

Ambushes.

Original music.

It doesn't matter if it is linear and non linear as long as it looks and plays good. (Example SIGIL.wad)

 

Dislike

Large maps with little or no secrets.

Shotgun Guys. (as much as I hate them I still use them)

Chaingunners. (as much as I hate them I still use them)

Slaughtermaps.

Finding a key first and searching everywhere for that rather hard to see key door.

Unnecessary Backtracking. A lot of my earlier maps had this but I try to avoid this in my current maps.

Ambushes where you are trapped and there are pillars that take forever to lower.

[Casketkrusher]

Good enemy placement. 

Infighting.

I like smaller maps. 

Traps.

[Andromeda]

Like: Everything not listed below.

 

Dislike:

• Unavoidable power-ups: Max health, forced to grab a Soulsphere - not very cool, would rather have the possibility to choose when to pick a power-up.
• Preventing backtracking: My playstyle consists on clearing the level, then backtracking to max my health, armor and ammo. Some levels don't allow this, which is mildly annoying, and somewhat easily solved by adding a teleporter closet in the exit room, like in Memento Mori's MAP16: Stoned, which you can take if you want to restock on supplies.
• Forced damage sectors: Kinda gets in the way when I feel like playing a level Reality style - a measly Radiation Suit/Invulnerability in an obscure secret would be very very useful.

 

Just some minor gripes :)

[Maximum Matt]

Likes:

• Finishing a map first try and getting 100% kills/items/secrets
• Conveniently grouped low-tier baddies near a rocket launcher
• Invuln sphere in a secret near a cyberdemon 

Dislikes:

• Chaingunner alcoves disguised by false walls
• Teleporting directly in front of enemies
• Awkward jumps to progress the level, that if you miss you have to walk ten miles to get back up to try again
• Enemies too far above/below you, where you can't see and have to blindly shoot
• Plutonia map 11

[Misty]

Things I prefer in maps:

• I like when people use unusual doom palette colours. It gives new flavour to otherwise brown, grey maps and makes good contrasts if used right. 
• I also like those wild maps from 90's and more recent times. 
• Damage floors to encourage player move to relatively safer places and not stand on one place.
• Rocket spam to low tier monsters. 
• For the same reason told above, strategically placed barrels to reduce enemy count.
• Challenging, but not so damn hard maps. Something what Valiant mapset did.
• When placed key or important switch/puzzle item does nothing to spawn monsters. I mean, it's seriously against expectations.
• Open areas and caves.

 

Things I dislike:
 

• Shotgun guys. 
• Long corridors and mazes.
• Way too low ceilings.
• Flickering lights in big areas, they often makes me disoriented and induce headaches.

[Urthar]

Like:

 

Being allowed to get the drop on monsters occassionally.

Lighting used a gameplay mechanic.

Rocket bowling imps or other trash monsters.

Massive transformation sequences.

Non-linear optional stuff.

Cool secrets.

 

Dislike:

 

Lots of monsters on narrow pillars.

Instant pop-up ambushes.

[Solmyr]

Like: -Revenants in winding corridors or round rooms where their homing missiles are harder to dodge. 

-Dead Simple homages.

-Gibbing medium sized groups of zombies and imps by shooting at a bunch of barrels.

 

Dislike: -Spiderdemon beneath a crusher.

-Chaingunner traps.

-Getting ambushed by spectres in near pich darkness (applies to boom or vanilla compatible maps).

 

[NuMetalManiak]

Like:

-speedrun-friendly layouts, doesn't mean they have to be linear, just have to be properly constructed so I'm not banging my head on random walls finding out what a switch does.

-Pain elementals and lost souls

-Stair tricks

-Secret levels that are rewarding or feel unique as opposed to secret levels that are just ordinary levels

 

Dislike:

-Improper usage of 30-second door traps as well as improper timing on forced arena fights. The latter usually happens in slaughtermaps, I often get done quicker than I expect and having to twiddle thumbs with nothing to do besides wait for the thing to lower all the way. Of course, not all are created similar.

-Also opening a color key switch only to find another one directly behind it.

-Secrets that have a lot of effort to reach but the reward honestly isn't worth the effort

-Barrels when placed only as obstacles impeding progress rather than being placed for traps.