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Zetta

Hell's Last Stand [continuing the HR legacy](Update!)

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=HLS=


What is HLS?
---------------
Hells Last Stand is a sequel to HR and HR2 which explores many new areas which had not been previously explored. By this I mean things such as making an effort for high detail. More and nicer looking textures, and more creative maps. More creative maps, yep, play through countless new maps and experience the side of HR that has not been seen before. :)


How can I help?
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While we are looking for mappers, we are only looking for those who can make good maps and keep up to par with us. The way this is going to work is we won’t be taking anyone in who asks with nothing to show. If you want to be a candidate for the HR3 team we ask that you post a link to a wad you have made in this topic. Why not screenshots? Because although detail is important, we care more about gameplay. We prefer if you share a wad in doom2 format so we can see what you can do with limited resources, if you don't have any, other formats are fine. Along with the link you may want to post what map number you would like us to look at. If it doesn’t matter just leave the link.

Doom2
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Now I know that when you guys see the screenshots the first thing we’re gonna hear is “why is there still so little detail”. So I want to clarify something. We decided to stick with the original format – Doom2. The reason why HR2 had so little detail was because Doom2 has a limit - in this case meaning only 256 linedefs can be in the players FOV at any time. HR2 played it safe: they stayed in the 100’s. Not us, some of our maps are so well done that some areas are in the 240’s.

Graphics
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We are also going to be looking for some help with a titlepic and backround for it. But one of us will make a new topic for that. Also, we are looking for someone who can help us out by making textures and flats. Lets see what you guys bring to the table.

Music
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Yes! We are looking for you crazy music makers out there, just post us some samples to listen to.


HR3
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As you can see from those screenshots, many maps we haven’t hesitated to make a challenge. Yet some maps do have a more concentrated gameplay. We started this project almost a year ago, things went very slow. But we were not planning on taking anywhere near 4 years (lol), but depending on how much help we get it won't take to long.

Current members
-----------------------
-FOUNDERS
Zetta
Set Abominae
Pottus
-MAPPERS
Chroz
Tib
-Musicians
Forty-Two

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Why people so like to exploit someone else's "trade marks"? Make one's crap with own name, not with Plutonia2, TNT2 or Hell Revealed III.

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hey, WOW! This is so great!

I certainly do not have the appropriate mapping skills yet, but I`ll probably throw out some midis for you guys to check out.

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-FOUNDERS
Zetta
Set Abominae
Pottus


What do these people do

Screenshots look ok, good luck at any rate.

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entryway said:

Why people so like to exploit someone else's "trade marks"? Make one's crap with own name, not with Plutonia2, TNT2 or Hell Revealed III.

I thought the same thing, until I read the OP more closely:

And with great ease accomplished, Chroz (Jonas), the leader of the HR2 project agreed to join us. And so the mapping began.

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Wow, Hell Revealed III. If done well, this wad will surely be very interesting.

Zetta said:

We started this project almost a year ago, things went very slow. But we were not planning on taking anywhere near 4 years (lol), but depending on how much help we get it will take about a year. Possibly less if we get a lot of help.

Hmm, there's no need to rush it. You're using a big name here, so better take your time to release something worthy of that name :)
I think a year is a very short period of time when working on a megawad.

Good luck with this project, I'm sure many people will be looking forward to this.

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Heh, pic 5 in the album looks familiar for some reason ...

I liked HR, but am kind of on the fence with HR2 - maybe I should actually play the higher maps. I'm glad it's getting a bit more detail, as the clean detail of the scythes just adds to the great gameplay, but some of it looks a bit funky. As for signing up ... with classes just starting and something else I'm working on I don't think I could give enough right now. FTl, I will self-promote anyway ;P

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Planky said:

What do these people do

Screenshots look ok, good luck at any rate.



We map! :D

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ArmouredBlood said:

Heh, pic 5 in the album looks familiar for some reason ...


Thats the Chapel Of Black Granite II it is very similar to the first level but it picks up where that level could have been made better. At first glance it might look like it's just a modified version of the original level but actually I re-constructed the whole level from scratch using the original map as a layout guide. The original level has a secondary UAC theme in it which was not used for the new level. Instead the whole level features a Cathedral like theme with improved architecture over the original. It always was one of my favorite HR2 levels I think this one address most of the issues that were lacking in the original.

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Despite the fact that [HR2] was much better than the original with better maps and music and such


Strongly disagree, on both accounts.

Regardless, good luck.

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Phml said:

Strongly disagree, on both accounts.

Regardless, good luck.


Well it also depends on your tastes

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At first I was skeptical but then I looked at the screenshots. Looks like you "stole" a couple of ideas from HR, but that's eligible, Plutonia 2 did the same.
Screenshots look good, I like the third one the best.
Needs much harder gameplay though, screenshots show otherwise ;)

Best of luck to you all.

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Ven said:

At first I was skeptical but then I looked at the screenshots. Looks like you "stole" a couple of ideas from HR, but that's eligible, Plutonia 2 did the same.
Screenshots look good, I like the third one the best.
Needs much harder gameplay though, screenshots show otherwise ;)

Best of luck to you all.


thank you, heh, i just want to assure you guys that we are not hesitating a bit to make you say to your self "some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed". Some of these maps are arguably harder than AV.

We are doing one other thing slightly different than hr, and hr2. We aren't throwing endless hordes of monsters at you (well we kinda are), but instead are adding a more stratigic angle to the game.

Also ven, i just want to point out; did hr2 steal the path2 from hr as we are 'stealing' the path 3 from hr? Food for thought! :D

Edit: Also wanna point out that plutonia2 did not get permission to make a sequel, we did.

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Looking forward to playing it.

I think that HR2 is not a sequel to HR but only one of the megawads which was influenced by HR, like AV, Kama Sutra, and so on... Of course, HR3 is so.
It doesn't mean that I hate HR2. Actually, I like it very much.

Although there are a lot of maps influenced by HR, only one megawad are regarded as a sequel to HR. I think it is just unfair.

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entryway said:
Why people so like to exploit someone else's "trade marks"? Make one's crap with own name, not with Plutonia2, TNT2 or Hell Revealed III.

I tend to agree. I argued using a different name for Plutonia 2. Eventually I helped out regardless of the name choice, as that name was decided by the team leaders, and PL2 seemed like a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity considering the designer roster. Besides, by helping, I think I contributed to make the project more of a legit sequel by encouraging respect for copyrights and using Plutonia as the IWAD, so I can't feel too guilty. You yourself helped a bit in making it more legit by encouraging the team to get in touch with the Casali brothers :p

But it's easy to make an offshoot or sequel without stealing the original name. Appropriating a popular name can be seen as a form of attention whoring. I mean, a Plutonia sequel could be called something like "Plutonian Resurgence" or any such cool name that implies derivation without pretending officialness or a direct association. Likewise, an unofficial HR follow-up could be called "Hell's Revenge" or whatever. Thinking of a good name is yet another way of being original and creative, and of respecting the authors of the original we're being inspired by.

Look at the id-released DOOM games, for example. DOOM and DOOM II are called thus because they were made by id themselves. TNT and Plutonia are DOOM II sequels, if we read their stories, but the authors gave them different, distinctive names. Why? Because they were made by other people.

esselfortium said:
I thought the same thing, until I read the OP more closely:

This case is more indirect than PL2 and TNT2, where Dario Casali and Ty Halderman were asked, respectively.

Zetta said:
Also ven, i just want to point out; did hr2 steal the path2 from hr as we are 'stealing' the path 3 from hr? Food for thought! :D

I'm not certain. You're in touch with Chrozoron, so you can ask him whether he talked to Donner. Also, you could ask him whether there were any terms involved. I mean, Donner giving him the okay to make HR2 does not necessarily imply the okay to make an unlimited number of offshoots with the name.

Edit: Also wanna point out that plutonia2 did not get permission to make a sequel, we did.

Anoche tuve un sueño donde había un par de pájaros, como pichones de águila, color gris paloma, pero grandes como un águila adulto. Uno se tragaba una piedra un poco más grande que una uva y la cagaba intacta segundos después, explicándome el processo verbalmente mientras lo llevaba a cabo.

Phml said:
Strongly disagree, on both accounts.

I tend to agree with you here, particularly regarding the level design. HR is pretty unique and is mainly about strategic play using hordes and mechanics. HR2 is decent but doesn't really have a strong focus, only the high monster count inherited from HR. Perhaps we can blame the amount of authors, or perhaps not enough insight judging what makes HR be HR. It could be argued that the best HR-style disciples have been some authors with their individual styles. To name three examples; Erik Alm, Adolf Vojta and Huy Pham. If any single WAD comes closest to an HR sequel, it may well be Kama Sutra.

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Zetta said:

How can I help?
--------------------
While we are looking for mappers, we are only looking for the best. The way this is going to work is we won’t be taking anyone in who asks with nothing to show. If you want to be a candidate for the HR3 team we ask that you post a link to a wad you have made in this topic. Why not screenshots? Because although detail is important, we care more about gameplay. We perfer if you share a wad in doom2 format so we can see what you can do with limited resources, if you dont have any, other formats are fine. Along with the link you may want to post what map number you would like us to look at. If it doesn’t matter just leave the link.

So where are the links to your previously released maps, so people can have a look at them?

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myk pretty much laid out what I was thinking.

On the other hand, besides chroz, the team is unknown to me. That doesnt mean it's a bad thing, i am just uncertain of what it will become.

Good luck anyhow and most of all choose your testers well. I mean compet-n caliber testers, some mapping experience would be a plus. In other other words, some very critical people are a plus for such a project. Don't do a favor to a lazy buddy of yours.

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myk said:

I'm not certain. You're in touch with Chrozoron, so you can ask him whether he talked to Donner. Also, you could ask him whether there were any terms involved. I mean, Donner giving him the okay to make HR2 does not necessarily imply the okay to make an unlimited number of offshoots with the name.

Anoche tuve un sueño donde había un par de pájaros, como pichones de águila, color gris paloma, pero grandes como un águila adulto. Uno se tragaba una piedra un poco más grande que una uva y la cagaba intacta segundos después, explicándome el processo verbalmente mientras lo llevaba a cabo.


At the begining chroz tried to find him with no luck.

Basta con los pajaros.

VinceDSS:

On the other hand, besides chroz, the team is unknown to me. That doesnt mean it's a bad thing, i am just uncertain of what it will become.

Good luck anyhow and most of all choose your testers well. I mean compet-n caliber testers, some mapping experience would be a plus. In other other words, some very critical people are a plus for such a project. Don't do a favor to a lazy buddy of yours.


Thank you guys, we appreciate the concern that you are all showing and we will be extra careful just for you guys. We have no intention of screwing this up, our mappers have been selected very carefuly. Maybe we will try to get a trailer out there sometime.

And where are my maps you ask? They are in HR3.wad. Don't worry bout it, if i wasn't up for the job i think i would kick myself out. :p

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I think I read on Donner's page about HR2, where he talked about it and showed excitement towards it.

The screenies for this project look really great. If you want, I may be able to join and contribute a map, later on down the road...

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Zetta said:

And where are my maps you ask? They are in HR3.wad. Don't worry bout it, if i wasn't up for the job i think i would kick myself out. :p


No offense, I really have no idea what your skill level in level designing is at so you may very well be totally awesome. But just because you say that you are, well let's just say that you wouldn't be the first to have an unfounded faith in your own abilities as a level designer.
The statement you made above, does little to affirm any belief in your abilities.

But, I hope you do well with this project.

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Zetta said:

And where are my maps you ask? They are in HR3.wad. Don't worry bout it, if i wasn't up for the job i think i would kick myself out. :p


You know you're your own worse critic right? I find it funny that mappers are being chosen so selectively but the one doing the choosing has not released any maps publicly.

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VinceDSS said:

On the other hand, besides chroz, the team is unknown to me. That doesnt mean it's a bad thing, i am just uncertain of what it will become.


Most of them look to be from Skulltag. I've seen most of their maps, and they are usually decent.

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myk said:

Last night I had a dream where I had a couple of birds like eagle chicks, dove gray, but large as an eagle adult. One had swallowed a stone a little larger than a grape and defecated intact seconds later, while verbally explaining how the process was being carried out.

Damn google. Anyway, good story.

Use3D said:

You know you're your own worse critic right? I find it funny that mappers are being chosen so selectively but the one doing the choosing has not released any maps publicly.

Did people in the Alien Vendetta team release much?

Vincent Catalaa: "none"
Madani El Hariri: "nothing worthy"
Martin Aalen Hunsager: "none released"
Jan Endre Jansen: "One boom specific map, a small dm level, none released"
Anders Johnsen: "Several, tho none released (if demos don't count =)"

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printz said:

Did people in the Alien Vendetta team release much?

Your point is not in the same ball park.

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